Help on understanding time signatures.

[Hovmod]

There's a classic example of the problems with notation. With respect Vic, swing isn't triplets. There's no satisfactory way of notating swing. You can write "with swing" over a score but that doesn't say how much swing. Again, shuffle is different from swing and there's no way of notating it either.

There's no symbol for Maxim Vengerov's tone either. What's your point?

[JumpingJackFlash]

I just came from a different beginning point, a point that makes it 5 times more difficult to understand this system because not only do I have to learn this theory, but I have to unlearn all the small systems I taught myself in how to deal with making music. I'm instantaneously learning and un-learning.

I understand that, for someone not familiar with musical notation, learning it for the first time would be difficult. - That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the system of notating music however, it just means that, as with most things in life, you need to put in the time to learn it from the basics on up.
(Note though that theory and musical notation are separate things).

This isn't a dig at you 'No name', I'm just saying that the system of musical notation is fine as it is and does not need to be overhauled.

[nuffink]

There's a classic example of the problems with notation. With respect Vic, swing isn't triplets. There's no satisfactory way of notating swing. You can write "with swing" over a score but that doesn't say how much swing. Again, shuffle is different from swing and there's no way of notating it either.

There's no symbol for Maxim Vengerov's tone either. What's your point?

I thought I'd made it. Oh well, never mind.

[VicDiesel]

There's a classic example of the problems with notation. With respect Vic, swing isn't triplets.

I know. Saying that a melody with swing is triplets with the middle note left out is a gross simplification, but it'll do for explaining what a triplet it. Besides, I only mentioned that parenthetically.

Victor.

[Chuck E. Jesus]

There's a classic example of the problems with notation. With respect Vic, swing isn't triplets. There's no satisfactory way of notating swing. You can write "with swing" over a score but that doesn't say how much swing. Again, shuffle is different from swing and there's no way of notating it either.

i don't know shit about nothing, but i thought that was what conductors/band leaders were for....

[Toxikator]

There's a classic example of the problems with notation. With respect Vic, swing isn't triplets.

I know. Saying that a melody with swing is triplets with the middle note left out is a gross simplification, but it'll do for explaining what a triplet it. Besides, I only mentioned that parenthetically.

Victor.

Since when? "Swing" means EXACTLY the same thing as "triplets with the middle note left out", or at least "6/8 time with the middle note left out".

In fact, I notate all "swing" using 6/8, what of it? since when is swing anything more than that?

[nuffink]

Since when? "Swing" means EXACTLY the same thing as "triplets with the middle note left out", or at least "6/8 time with the middle note left out".

No it doesn't.

[Toxikator]

Oh, I see.

Do this, then: toss together a quick example (or just link me to one) that uses swing which ISN'T just triplets without a middle note.

You can even HEAR the middle note in the solos and stuff, it's not like there's anything magical going on.

Mp3 proof: Linky!

Notice how the "swing" is used interchangeably with a 6/8 time (particularly the triplets at the end, which are written the same way only with the middle note filled in).

[nuffink]

Oh, I see.

Do this, then: toss together a quick example (or just link me to one) that uses swing which ISN'T just triplets without a middle note.

You can even HEAR the middle note in the solos and stuff, it's not like there's anything magical going on.

Mp3 proof: Linky!

Notice how the "swing" is used interchangeably with a 6/8 time (particularly the triplets at the end, which are written the same way only with the middle note filled in).

Swing is the delay of an eighth note by any amount along a continuum from 0% (no swing) to 100% (delayed completely till the next quarter note). At 33% along this line it will be delayed by the same amount as if it were the third note of a triplet. The amount of swing is open to the composer or performer (slower tempi tend to take more swing). This is not the case with triplets where the amount of "swing" is fixed.

And don't try an appeal to some dubious authority with me. It won't wash.

[Sascha Franck]

Toxikator, you should just take nuffinks last post as a given. It describes "swing" and "shuffle" (which are just two words for the same thing) as good as it could get.
Just one little correction, nuffink: "No swing" usually would be 50% (even division of a 4th or 8th) and "perfect swing" would be 66%.

[nuffink]

Toxikator, you should just take nuffinks last post as a given. It describes "swing" and "shuffle" (which are just two words for the same thing) as good as it could get.
Just one little correction, nuffink: "No swing" usually would be 50% (even division of a 4th or 8th) and "perfect swing" would be 66%.

You're using percentages of the distance from 1/4 note to 1/4 note. I'm using percentages of the distance from an 1/8th note to the next 1/4 note.

And shuffle is the same thing but with the 1/16th notes "swung" not the 1/8th.

[Sascha Franck]

You're using percentages of the distance from 1/4 note to 1/4 note. I'm using percentages of the distance from an 1/8th note to the next 1/4 note.

Yeah, I know. But IMO it's more clear with 66% as it properly describes the position of the perfectly swung 8th note between two quarters, instead of just describing the "drift off".

And shuffle is the same thing but with the 1/16th notes "swung" not the 1/8th.

I'm sorry, but in this case you're really wrong, mate. 16th note shuffle is usually refered to as "half time shuffle" (look into any real/fake/whatever book). Meaning that shuffle would, by tradition, still be based on 8th notes.
Typically, a bog standard blues/boogie beat would be described as a shuffling one.
Really, swing and shuffle are just the same - the only difference probably being that shuffle would perhaps be used for the more obvious effect whereas swing can be quite decent. But that's more of a historic thing and nothing of theoretical interest. Essentially both of them describe the same technique/effect.

[Toxikator]

What does that prove, though? If you play "imperfect" swing, then it's just that: Imperfect. On a good day it's nonmetric and on a bad day it's poorly performed. It's up to the composer whether he wants to change tempo with every bar, too, that doesn't mean it's intentional.

No matter how much you try to push and pull your swing you will still always percieve it in triplets form.

As I said before: THAT'S WHY YOU ALWAYS HEAR SONGS WITH SWING EMPLOYING TRIPLETS!

So yes, technically swing isn't 6/8. And technically, A isn't 440hZ, it's whatever the violinist bows/singer sings.

But for all practical, NON-imaginary uses, swing is going to be played as 6/8 without the middle note (except when they feel like putting the middle note in).

[JumpingJackFlash]

Do this, then: toss together a quick example (or just link me to one) that uses swing which ISN'T just triplets without a middle note.

Typically, swing is more often thought of as delaying the 2nd of two quavers, so 'straight' quavers (both equal) become closer to one dotted-quaver followed by a semi-quaver (so, the ratio is closer to 3/4:1/4 rather than 1/2:1/2).
But, like nuffink said, there are different degrees of swing. Swinging like triplets without the middle note (as you suggest) is also not uncommon, but it is not the only way to swing. - The whole point of swing is that it isn't notated; it needs to be felt by the players (there is not really one correct way of doing it).

[nuffink]

What does that prove, though? If you play "imperfect" swing, then it's just that: Imperfect. On a good day it's nonmetric and on a bad day it's poorly performed. It's up to the composer whether he wants to change tempo with every bar, too, that doesn't mean it's intentional.

No matter how much you try to push and pull your swing you will still always percieve it in triplets form.

As I said before: THAT'S WHY YOU ALWAYS HEAR SONGS WITH SWING EMPLOYING TRIPLETS!

So yes, technically swing isn't 6/8. And technically, A isn't 440hZ, it's whatever the violinist bows/singer sings.

But for all practical, NON-imaginary uses, swing is going to be played as 6/8 without the middle note (except when they feel like putting the middle note in).

Sorry, you're dead wrong.