Help on understanding time signatures.

[Sascha Franck]

What does that prove, though? If you play "imperfect" swing, then it's just that: Imperfect. On a good day it's nonmetric and on a bad day it's poorly performed.[...]

You're talking utter nonsense here, really. You don't seem to know shit about swing and how it's performed.
Try your "perfect" swing on 8ths at tempi above, say, 200 (which isn't anything rare for swing and bebop). It will just sound lousy and rushed. If you were performing with "perfect" swing in a jazz band on a faster tune, it'd be your first and last gig, period.
What nuffink said is *absolutely* true. On lower tempi, swing might even mean the last 8th triplet to fall closer to the 4th 16th whereas on faster tempi it's almost exactly an 8th.
Several great swing recordings prove this and if you say they're just performed poorly, then you're really doing nothing else but proving you're clueless about this issue.

[nuffink]

You're using percentages of the distance from 1/4 note to 1/4 note. I'm using percentages of the distance from an 1/8th note to the next 1/4 note.

Yeah, I know. But IMO it's more clear with 66% as it properly describes the position of the perfectly swung 8th note between two quarters, instead of just describing the "drift off".

And shuffle is the same thing but with the 1/16th notes "swung" not the 1/8th.

I'm sorry, but in this case you're really wrong, mate. 16th note shuffle is usually refered to as "half time shuffle" (look into any real/fake/whatever book). Meaning that shuffle would, by tradition, still be based on 8th notes.
Typically, a bog standard blues/boogie beat would be described as a shuffling one.
Really, swing and shuffle are just the same - the only difference probably being that shuffle would perhaps be used for the more obvious effect whereas swing can be quite decent. But that's more of a historic thing and nothing of theoretical interest. Essentially both of them describe the same technique/effect.

Yep. I'm with you on the traditional usage of shuffle. However, with the advent of drum machines based on 16 divisions of a bar, the word shuffle seems to have become associated with the delay of 1/16th notes.

[Toxikator]

Sascha: I just tried it at 294 BPM, it sounds exactly like it should. I can't imagine a rhythm much faster than that.

I can't tell if this is just the refusal to concede the point, or if I'm REALLY missing something huge. Please, an audio example of when the 6/8 without the middle doesn't work.

[Sascha Franck]

Listen to some swing records. That's all you need to do. None of them will be using "perfect" swing.

[freeztar]

Listen to how Ray Brown swings on old jazz albums. As Sascha says, it will not be perfect swing (well he plays it just about as perfect as anyone can) but will be swung with feeling. A little give there, a little take there, but definitly not 50/50.
What you're describing, toxikator, sounds more like polka styling...

[Toxikator]

No one plays in perfect time. That doesn't mean that isn't their INTENTION, and it CERTAINLY doesn't mean that there's some deviance in theory because of it.

If I "humanize" my drum grooves by shifting some notes and velocities around, am I no longer in 4/4 time?

Polka, BTW, is actually cut time with the up-beat accented.

[Sascha Franck]

No one plays in perfect time. That doesn't mean that isn't their INTENTION, and it CERTAINLY doesn't mean that there's some deviance in theory because of it.

You're talking out of your ass here, nothing else.
Good Jazz musicians practice that kind of "half-swung" (or even less) kind of phrasing for all their life.
So a) it IS their intention and b) it DOES qualify as a theory, just as much as anything else.

If I "humanize" my drum grooves by shifting some notes and velocities around, am I no longer in 4/4 time?

That's got nothing to do with it. Swing is 4/4 (or whatever time signature) as much as anything else.

For your interest: Swing is actually notated as even 8ths (or 16ths, for the matter). One of the reasons being that you're asked for to interprete it freely, instead of following a strict triplet grid.

Really, you should stop trying to convince anybody of your "truths" when it's just incredibly obvious that in this case you have no clue about what you're talking about.

[Toxikator]

you're the one spewing crap, Sascha. You upchuck generalities but you've yet to post ONE audio example demonstrating swing being used in a way other than triplets without the middle note.

You say that swing is notated as "4/4", but it's not (always).

From Wikipedia:

In the swing era, swing meant accented triplets (shuffle rhythm), suitable for dancing. With the development of bebop and later jazz styles independent of dancing, the term was used for far more general timings. There is much debate over use of other ratios than 2:1 in swing rhythms.

Some publishers of jazz music, especially those whose intended audience is people unfamiliar with jazz styles, transcribe the swing either:

-As compound time, such as 6/8, 9/8, or 12/8. When played with the swing accent, these time signatures may be grouped together and called swing time, or swing time can also mean a simple time played with the swing convention.

-As triplets within a duple meter.

oops.

[nuffink]

you're the one spewing crap, Sascha. You upchuck generalities but you've yet to post ONE audio example demonstrating swing being used in a way other than triplets without the middle note.

You say that swing is notated as "4/4", but it's not (always).

From Wikipedia:
In the swing era, swing meant accented triplets (shuffle rhythm), suitable for dancing. With the development of bebop and later jazz styles independent of dancing, the term was used for far more general timings. There is much debate over use of other ratios than 2:1 in swing rhythms.

Some publishers of jazz music, especially those whose intended audience is people unfamiliar with jazz styles, transcribe the swing either:

As compound time, such as 6/8, 9/8, or 12/8. When played with the swing accent, these time signatures may be grouped together and called swing time, or swing time can also mean a simple time played with the swing convention.
As triplets within a duple meter.

oops.

You've got a lot to learn. And wiki aint gonna help.

[VicDiesel]

What does that prove, though? If you play "imperfect" swing,

Nope. Jazz musicians have chops out the wazoo, and they all swing differently. It's a function of speed (closer to 50 percent at high speed), but also of the instrument. Drummers will typically be closer to 75%, and saxes will be closer to 50.

Add individual differences.....

Really, this is a real phenomenon. There are even scientific studies about it.

Victor.

[Toxikator]

I know plenty about music, believe it or not. And I know plenty about jazz, and 50's rock, and even early delta blues. And I have NEVER heard a swing that wasn't straight triplets. Sure, there were times when it wasn't perfect, but there are ALWAYS times when the meter isn't rigidly adhered to, that doesn't change the time signature (and in this case it's 6/8).

I've seen the arguments over "how to notate it" and the end result is always the same: people who don't know the first damn thing about time signatures or meter just write everything as 4/4 or 3/4 and slap a "with swing" on there. People who understand the nature of their rhythms mark them as 6/8 or triplets.

And you can stick up your nose about how I must just be stupid and swing has nothing to do with triplets, but it STILL doesn't explain why the solos and fills are always based on TRIPLETS. All the swing rhythms have fills and intros based on that "wee-nee-nee wee-nee-nee wee-nee-nee wee-nee-nee dun, chTA! dun dun, chTA! dun"

[VicDiesel]

Some publishers of jazz music, especially those whose intended audience is people unfamiliar with jazz styles, transcribe the swing either:

oops.

You've got a lot to learn. And wiki aint gonna help.

No, I think he is admitting that he has learned his mistake. He just found out that 6/8 and such is a simplification for people unfamiliar with the true nature of jazz.

Victor.

[nuffink]

I know plenty about music, believe it or not. And I know plenty about jazz

No you don't. You might have read a lot about it, but your confusion over something as fundamental as swing means you don't know plenty about jazz.

[Toxikator]

No, I was making fun of him

Look, Jazz musicians push and pull time, ALL musicians do. Are you familiar with tempo rubato? It's a musical device based ENTIRELY on pushing and pulling time. And when you ue it, it doesn't CHANGE the fact that you're in 4/4. Swing is the same. the "swung notes" can be pushed and pulled but they're still fundamentally triplets.

Are they always rigid? No, I never said they were. if you read back, I said they're always PERCIEVED that way; their rhythmic function is as pieces of a triplet. Marking them in 4/4 is just plain inaccurate. It's understood by performers but it's not proper time.

[Sascha Franck]

Toxikator, I am almost done in replying anymore to your posts because it's really starting to make me agressive.

From what you've been writing so far, it's just blatantly obvious that you have NO SINGLE CLUE about what swing is all about, yet you are trying to continue your crusade.

Fact is, swing can be notated in various ways. It can be notated as even 8ths (*the* most common method, just grab any real book), but it can as well be notated as, say, 12/8. It could as well be notated in triplets.

Fact is as well (and this is the *only* thing you are right about), that theoretically swing means using the first and third triplet instead of even 8ths (or 16ths).

But, actual music examples prove that swing isn't performed following this description literally.
It's more or less common knowledge that, as soon as "swing" comes into the game, players are interpreting it differently. And "different" doesn't equal wrong or imperfect - which is what you are trying to tell us here. Just "different".
And then, there's even reasons for it to be interpreted differently, namely varying tempi. Especially for fast tempi, "perfect" swing is sounding just rushed. You wouldn't make it for a minute in a swing band, would you play "perfect" swing at 250BPM. Even at lower tempi, people already start to vary a LOT. And yes, this *is* intentional and not a matter of sloppy playing.

So, what's coming next?