Help on understanding time signatures.

[Toxikator]

I know plenty about music, believe it or not. And I know plenty about jazz

No you don't. You might have read a lot about it, but your confusion over something as fundamental as swing means you don't know plenty about jazz.

Enlighten me then.

For the 100th time:

POST ONE PIECE WHICH UTILIZES SWING IN A WAY THAT IT DOESN'T SOUND AS TRIPLETS!

[Toxikator]

It's more or less common knowledge that, as soon as "swing" comes into the game, players are interpreting it differently. And "different" doesn't equal wrong or imperfect - which is what you are trying to tell us here. Just "different".
And then, there's even reasons for it to be interpreted differently, namely varying tempi. Especially for fast tempi, "perfect" swing is sounding just rushed. You wouldn't make it for a minute in a swing band, would you play "perfect" swing at 250BPM. Even at lower tempi, people already start to vary a LOT. And yes, this *is* intentional and not a matter of sloppy playing.

So, what's coming next?

As I said before: Just because the notes are pushed and pulled slightly from their grid doesn't mean that the fundamental time has changed.

they are still triplets. The slight adjustment of start and end time is an entirely different device. Just like tempo rubado or ritardando.

Swung notes, regardless of their slight groove adjustments for other reasons, are still functionally triplets and therefore it is ACCURATE to notate them as such.

This argument is tantamount to saying "the note A isn't 440Hz because if you ever listen to a chorus or string ensemble they all play slightly different frequencies".

Yes, yes they do. And be it accidentally due to tuning error, or intentionally (as in a synthetic Unison or Chorus effect) they're all playing the same note. even if each musician plays a note at slightly different times it is still the same fundamental time structure.

[nuffink]

I know plenty about music, believe it or not. And I know plenty about jazz

No you don't. You might have read a lot about it, but your confusion over something as fundamental as swing means you don't know plenty about jazz.

Enlighten me then.

For the 100th time:

POST ONE PIECE WHICH UTILIZES SWING IN A WAY THAT IT DOESN'T SOUND AS TRIPLETS!

Nah. I don't give a shit that you don't know what swing is. And to tell you the truth, I quite enjoy watching you make an idiot of yourself.

[Sascha Franck]

I've seen the arguments over "how to notate it" and the end result is always the same: people who don't know the first damn thing about time signatures or meter just write everything as 4/4 or 3/4 and slap a "with swing" on there. People who understand the nature of their rhythms mark them as 6/8 or triplets.

Have you ever seen ANY real or fake book?
Obviously not.
NOT A SINGLE SWING TUNE IS NOTATED IN 6/8 OR IN TRIPLETS IN THEM!
Let me repeat it even larger:
NOT A SINGLE ONE!

[Sascha Franck]

Swung notes, regardless of their slight groove adjustments for other reasons, are still functionally triplets and therefore it is ACCURATE to notate them as such.

So, explain to me why this sort of notation is found NOWHERE.

[vurt]

i enjoyed bbc4s "saving jazz".

[nuffink]

i enjoyed bbc4s "saving jazz".

Me too.

[Toxikator]

So, explain to me why this sort of notation is found NOWHERE.

Because jazz musicians don't know or don't care.

entire songs are improvised in Jazz, it's the nature of the style. it's easier to just say "with swing" because the musicians understand this, regardless of whether they're actually playing in 6/8 or not.

More modern examples DO notate it in 6/8 (because that's what it is) but jazz books won't because jazz musicians are accustomed to doing it wrong. All clarinet literature is notated in the key of C and sounds in Bb. Does that mean that when you play "C" on Clarinet the note changes? No. It's a vestige of an older innaccuracy that's been passed down.

it's commonly understood that, when 4/4 is written "with swing", triplets are what's being played. Just because the signature says "4/4" doesn't mean that's what's played, anymore than writing the note "C" means that a clarinet will sound that note.

[herodotus]

I certainly don't think that 'swing' suffers from notation any more than any other player focused (as opposed to composer focused) music does.

Try to convey the 'feel' of, say, a Led Zeppelin song like 'Black Dog' or 'Custard Pie' to someone who has never heard the band, using only notation.

Try to convey the lurching quality in a song by the Melvins or the bizarre continuities in the realtime/ametric sample/realtime collages of Fantomas.

Not easy at all.

Steve Vai has probably given us the closest thing to a rhythmically accurate notational representation of a guitar solo in the Frank Zappa guitar book, and it is imposingly difficult to read. Some of it looks like a score by Boulez or Ligeti, and its a guitar solo going over a two chord Reggae vamp.

It's almost like notation is not really up to the task of being a graphic representation of popular music.

Interesting, no?

[Sascha Franck]

"Accustomed to doing it wrong."
"Most modern examples do notate it in 6/8."

I can't believe this.

When there is something notated as "with swing" you are adviced to freely interprete the amount of swing. When there's something written in 6/8 (make that 12/8, btw) or in triplets, you are adviced to more or less follow the grid strictly.
You just don't understand that.

You are an idiot, Toxikator. Sorry. I won't waste my time arguing with somebody not having the slightest clue about the issue anymore.

[rachmiel]

hey how about dem bills?

[shamann]

I thought dem sabres were the bigger news these days?

[Toxikator]

"Accustomed to doing it wrong."
"Most modern examples do notate it in 6/8."

I can't believe this.

When there is something notated as "with swing" you are adviced to freely interprete the amount of swing. When there's something written in 6/8 (make that 12/8, btw) or in triplets, you are adviced to more or less follow the grid strictly.
You just don't understand that.

You are an idiot, Toxikator. Sorry. I won't waste my time arguing with somebody not having the slightest clue about the issue anymore.

I will recap this one last time.

You will either accept it as truth and come out wiser, or we both run off and pout and you go on not understanding the music you write.

1) Whether the grid is adhered to rigidly or not is a distinct musical device. Swung notes are triplets. They are percieved as triplets. Sounding them later or eariler does not change their musical function, any more than two instruments sounding at slightly different frequencies constitute different notes being sounded.

2) Just because music is notated as 4/4 does not make it so. Clarinet is notated a whole note ABOVE what sounds; if your logic is to be believed the Clarinet ISN'T sounding the note Bb, it's sounding the note C, 'because all music is written that way! "

Can jazz be notated in 4/4 "with swing"? Yes. Does the 6/8 grid have to be strictly adhered to? No (and sometimes it's preferrable not to). Does that mean that, functionally, the meter is not built on triplets? No.

Take it or leave it, I don't care.

[VicDiesel]

Swung notes are triplets.

You keep saying that. Without any proof.

They are percieved as triplets.

No they're not. They are perceived as a division of the beat in two unequal halves.

Anyway. I'm outta here. This has been futile for at least 2 pages now.

Victor.

[Toxikator]

You keep saying that. Without any proof.

I had an mp3 example but I guess no one listened.