Help on understanding time signatures.

[Toxikator]

I had an mp3 example but I guess no one listened.

Well, just that you came up with a 12/8 example. No swing in sight at all.

Oh, sorry. I didn't realize there was a difference.

How bout this then? I moved the notes so they're halfway between "straight 8ths" and "triplet 8ths".
Because I gotta tell ya, I'm still hearing the triplets. Maybe it's just me.

"Real" swing

Not that my opinion is worth anything to anyone but a Music Theory forum is a very good idea.

[No name]

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/

Thanks, i'm gonna look into it when I get home from work tonight.

[nuffink]

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/

Thanks, i'm gonna look into it when I get home from work tonight.

It's a great site. Check out the front page for some seriously badcore theory twonkery.

[No name]

We need a music theory forum I think, there are just as many issues in music theory that seem to need discussion.

Yes, a music theory forum would be a great idea to have at KVR. After all, you do want to put all those synths and FX to good use, no?
Right now, these issues are discussed all over the place, so IMO it'd defenitely be nice to have a knowledgeable moderator running such a part of KVR.
Not that there weren't other places on the web already, but it just seems to make sense to me to have something like it right here.

That's been a problem for me. I've done my music by earr, by what sounds good. I can't do it anymore though, it's almost like a guessing game. Now though, messing around with minor and major scales, I see how it is organized, and it has been one hell of a help for me so far. This obviously has me very interested in learning more. I do need these laws, because it feels too chaotic without them to me. Too unpredictable in a sense. I'd like to go in on my keyboards, and think, well i'll use this scale as a reference, and then I go from there, and it always comes out organized and sensible to me. Granted, a lot of people think that it spoils making music, using all these boundaries or what not, but I suppose everyone has a way of doing their music, and this way works well for me. Nearly 10 years without it, and I have absolutely no damn clue how I did it. Actually, it is almost probably the reason I would have so many inspirational dry spells. Ever since i've gotten my head around more theory, i've become a bit more comfortable with it all, a bit more creative and risky, knowing that I understand what will happen if I do this or that helps immensely.

[Sascha Franck]

So you are assuming that the consensus makers of music are reasonable?

No, not at all.

I've got to say, guys, that you seem to be kind of fetishistic about this 'swing isn't just triplets' issue.

Personally, I don't see myself as being fetishistic, but I do have a more or less common sense (whatever that means) when it comes to things such as the current issue.

And yes, sometimes I am a bit rigourous about it.

Sometimes triplets can be a better way of conveying certain rhythmic ideas in songs that could be said to 'swing'. It depends on the musicians, their background, and the meter of the song.

Defenitely.

A vital part of the musical traditions related to swing is the direct real time communication between musicians

Defenitely #2.

I just found it a bit ridiculous to state that all sorts of swing would be strictly deriving from triplet grooves. There's no barebone facts to back up any such a statement. And as the description of swing not only allows but even *demands* a more freely interpretation, I tried to speak up, as good as possible for me at least.

[nuffink]

Granted, a lot of people think that it spoils making music, using all these boundaries or what not

Usually the ones pushing the boundaries of C major.

[vurt]

Granted, a lot of people think that it spoils making music, using all these boundaries or what not

Usually the ones pushing the boundaries of C major.

noooooooooooooo not the black keys...

[Toxikator]

Oh please.

I';m not trying to make it a rigid triplet grid, but I think it's pretty obvious if you listen that the triplet feel is there. It's not perfect, and that imperfection is part of the style (much as "Moonlight Sonata" is not a strictly adhered-to 3/4) but the fundamental is still a triplet style.

That's all I'm trying to say here. And if you're not convinced, well, I know I'll never convince you, but like you I'm rigorous and I hate to see people reading this thread and commenting on what they learned come under the assumption that swing is not triplet-oriented compound time, but rather simple time with some magical indefinable bebop dust sprinkled on.

It's compound (triplet) time with a tempo rubato. the metrics are still fundamentally the same...

well, I'm probably muted at this point so I'll show myself out.

[nuffink]

Oh please.

I';m not trying to make it a rigid triplet grid, but I think it's pretty obvious if you listen that the triplet feel is there. It's not perfect, and that imperfection is part of the style (much as "Moonlight Sonata" is not a strictly adhered-to 3/4) but the fundamental is still a triplet style.

That's all I'm trying to say here. And if you're not convinced, well, I know I'll never convince you, but like you I'm rigorous and I hate to see people reading this thread and commenting on what they learned come under the assumption that swing is not triplet-oriented compound time, but rather simple time with some magical indefinable bebop dust sprinkled on.

It's compound (triplet) time with a tempo rubato. the metrics are still fundamentally the same...

You're still wrong. Why would anyone notate a whole piece in triplets?

[Toxikator]

That's exactly my point. They wouldn't. They'd just write "With swing". BUT, the sound is still TRIPLETS. the meter IS triplets, regardless of how it's notated.

It's come up in this thread many times that notation out of date (and in fact this whole thing started over that) and this is just a shortcut way of notating an understood idea.

Fundamentally it is compound meter, not rigid though it may be.

[vurt]

i think the point is triplets is a little more rigid than swing, which is open to player interpretation

[Toxikator]

not really. I mean, the conventional "swing" feel is triplets with loose timing, yes... but the comment that sparked all this was that "swing" and "triplets" were completely different things, and my case was that "swing" is exactly the same as "triplets", but jazz/blues interprets rhythms with a relaxed timing... which doesn't change the fact that it's triplets.

I'd bring up moonlight sonata again, or any romantic-era composition, many of which push and pull the time for emotional or musical effect. The meter is still the same, though.

Swung notes are triplets, and relaxing them doesn't make them something else. that's all I'm saying.

I think that my pedantry and Sascha's pedantry have devolved the whole thing into a screaming flamewar, though.

[nuffink]

I think that my pedantry and Sascha's pedantry have devolved the whole thing into a screaming flamewar, though.

The difference is that your pedantry is based upon fundamental ignorance of the topic backed up by 2 hours of misunderstood web browsing. Sascha's is based on being a teacher.

[Toxikator]

teacher of what?

I don't profess to be an educator of any sorts but:

1) I've got 2 years of classical theory, 1 of blues/jazz theory, and 1 of world theory.
(home for the holidays, BTW, I apologize that Wikipedia is my source but my textbooks are at my apartment...)

2) I've had music professors explain to me that sine waves could be vocoded, that envelopes are made up of A,S,D and F stages, that there is no such thing as the Locrian mode, that circle progressions go both ways, and that sus4 chords are "sustained" and not "suspended". So his place as an educator gives him no leverage. He may very well be right, but you're gonna have to do better than "he's a teacher!"

and in his defense, he never brought it up so it's not as though he tried to use it as leverage to begin with.

But if "the timing is a little different" and "the sheet music is written in 4/4" are the arguments for swing being a fundamentally different musical construct than triplets/compound time, then you guys just don't have a clue.

Now, if you're aware that they're triplets and are trying to make it clear to me that they're not sounded rigidly, I already know. But they're still triplets.

[nuffink]

You've done a year of jazz/blues theory and don't understand swing? I'd ask for my tuition fees back if I were you.