Help on understanding time signatures.

[Toxikator]

You've done a year of jazz/blues theory and don't understand swing? I'd ask for my tuition fees back if I were you.

To be fair, that's more my two years of classical taking jazz theory and applying it to the basics of meter.

Swing = triplets

You can shift the time around the same way that blues musicians bend the pitch around but the notes and the beats are still the same essential thing.

[nuffink]

You've done a year of jazz/blues theory and don't understand swing? I'd ask for my tuition fees back if I were you.

To be fair, that's more my two years of classical taking jazz theory and applying it to the basics of meter.

Swing = triplets

You can shift the time around the same way that blues musicians bend the pitch around but the notes and the beats are still the same essential thing.

Good luck with your exams.

[Sascha Franck]

How bout this then? I moved the notes so they're halfway between "straight 8ths" and "triplet 8ths".
Because I gotta tell ya, I'm still hearing the triplets. Maybe it's just me.

"Real" swing

Yes, I agree, you *can* hear the triplets.

But ok. Let's try to approach this differently, without any hard feelings (I'm getting half-drunken anyways, wtf, it's middle of the week...).

There's two ways to approach swing.

One is the "it all derives from straight 8ths" approach. This is what I (and probably nuffink etc. as well) are bragging about.
With this approach you're just shifting offbeat 8ths back in time. Depending on the tempo, this may be a lot or not as much.
In the end, you still "understand" (hence notate) them as straight 8ths.
And fwiw, it's not a matter of timing, we're talking about "basic grooves" here.
There are certain historical reasons to deal with swing that way. IMO one of the main reasons being that swing was never meant to be a "strict" swing but just "bouncing" offbeat 8ths.
Instead of the boring old "ta-ta-ta-ta" people were playing "taaa-ta-taaa-ta". Or even "taaaaaa-ta-taaaaaa-ta". Without any reference to triplets at all, it just happened.
Note: Of *course* triplet phrasings (also using the middle triplet that is) came in naturally.
Yet, the original intention wasn't using triplets.

Then there's the second approach. I am actually not sure about the historics at all, but at one point in time, someone probably just made up an entirely "triplet-ed" groove out of some swing stuff (btw, we're not talking any classical music here, which had triplet based grooves a long time before). It suited things fine.
Regardless of how and when this happened, from that point on you were able to interprete "swing" grooves as triplet grooves as well.
And hell yeah, it's freaking easy as well. Just explain someone willing to swing to only play the first and third note of whatever triplet group and there's your swing.
I use that approach *all* the time when teaching. It's convenient, easy to demonstrate, easy to count and all. It's even more exact to notate in certain tempi. I mean, a playing advice such as "swing" - what the heck? Give me triplets and I know what to do!

Just that the second approach won't be able to cover the true finesse of swing. It's a rather mathematical approach. It's static, at least in case you interprete it literally. And a lot of people seem to do so.
"True" swing however isn't meant to be static. It's meant to vary the degrees of swing. You can hear a lot of people improvising in straight 8ths over a swung beat (listen to Tal Farlow, as an example).

Now, as far as "notation semantics" go, this would be a contradiction to triplet notation. You wouldn't be able to capture this within the triplet notation boundaries.
Of course, you also wouldn't be able to capture things within the boundaries of even 8th notation.
And that's exactly when the "swing" advice kicks in. With this you are allowed to move away from what's written within whatever tolerances - whereas triplet notation would usually mean you'd have to perform those triplets exactly.
Really, it might be just semantics, but that's what people are expecting.
In a nutshell:
- "Swing advice": Interprete freely (usually you just follow the drummer and do whatever you like for solo spots).
- Triplets: Play as written.

No doubt, there's quite some occasions when either of those would yield the same results. Yet, if you ask me, the approach is entirely different.

I can only speak from my personal experience, but that's what things seem to be handled like.

Not that my opinion is worth anything to anyone but a Music Theory forum is a very good idea.

Defenitely.

[Hink]

You've done a year of jazz/blues theory and don't understand swing? I'd ask for my tuition fees back if I were you.

To be fair, that's more my two years of classical taking jazz theory and applying it to the basics of meter.

Swing = triplets

You can shift the time around the same way that blues musicians bend the pitch around but the notes and the beats are still the same essential thing.

Good luck with your exams.

you know nuffink, if I were him I'd be less worried about the exams and spend more time on people skills...no matter whether you graduate 1st or last you still have to get the job...ever work with someone like tox fresh out of college?

[vurt]

...ever work with someone like tox fresh out of college?

yeah, when i was workin at mars there was this hippy...

[nuffink]

ever work with someone like tox fresh out of college?

'fraid so.

[Hink]

...ever work with someone like tox fresh out of college?

yeah, when i was workin at mars there was this hippy...

yeah but I wasn't that way...I was too much the clown...and well out of college...

[Toxikator]

Now see? Sascha and I are now being amiable and reconciling our differences like adults would do. I concede to him, he concedes to me, we both come out a little wiser. Meanwhile the rest of you fan the flames for no reason.

I think Sascha hit the nail on the head when he said that "True swing however isn't meant to be static. It's meant to vary the degrees of swing."

swing isn't a static thing, that's in the rhythm. The structure is still triplet oriented, though.

It's like crushing tones (for those reading along and not in the know, crushed tones are notes which are slid to simulate bending, and are typically major/minor ambiguous. So you might play C Eb G and immediately slide the Eb to E). When you crush tones, the chord is STILL that CEG chord, functionally. It's going to sound and feel different from a straight major chord, of course. But it's still functionally C Major. There are differences in style but to say that "if it's got a crushed tone it's no longer a major chord or a minor chord, but something in between" is rather silly.

I see swing the same way. Yes, improvisation and feel dictate that not all rhythms are played the same way. And yes, a jazz swing will sound different from your standard 6/8 or 12/8 piece of strict tempo. But the fundamental rhythmics are the same.

FWIW Hink, since I've seen you on this forum I've conceded defeat in several flamewars rather graciously while you egg people on to the end. I've never once seen you apologize and I doubt you ever do. And this is the INTERNET, everyone's a dick on the internet. So don't sweat my people skills. They're purportedly quite good.

[vurt]

...ever work with someone like tox fresh out of college?

yeah, when i was workin at mars there was this hippy...

yeah but I wasn't that way...I was too much the clown...and well out of college...

still a goddamned hippy though.



to keep us slightly on topic...

my problem with rhythms is reading and playing them, if i know how a piece is supposed to sound im ok, but when getting a piece for the first time and unheard first few runthroughs im bolloxed.
notes no problem i can get bars ahead(2 or 3 depending on complexity of melody/accompaniment) but rhythms not even close, i can never remember which is which off the cuff

[Hink]

FWIW Hink, since I've seen you on this forum I've conceded defeat in several flamewars rather graciously while you egg people on to the end. I've never once seen you apologize and I doubt you ever do.

that's because you don't know me well enough...I suspect the genral population of kvr might have a different opinion...I give you good advice tox...when you graduate (and remember where I said I wished you well) if you go out with a proving what you know attitude you'll be pushing cell phones in the mall...like I said even if you're right...I think you shold listen a little more...and fwiw, many of us were fresh out of college...you took that as an insult, but it might of been insight.

[nuffink]

Now see? Sascha and I are now being amiable and reconciling our differences like adults would do. I concede to him, he concedes to me, we both come out a little wiser.

I doubt Sascha learned anything from you. Other than never to take you seriously.

[Toxikator]

You're probably right, Hink, and I'm sorry.

But rest assured, I am very good at swallowing hard. When you use a PC and FL Studio in a town where you're LUCKY to find a studio that has a computer in it AT ALL (and you can bet they're all Macs w/ PT) you learn real quick to swallow your pride.

But this is the internet, I don't have to do that here! lol

And Nuffink? Merry Christmas to you, too, asshole.

[Hink]

still a goddamned hippy though.

and what are you?

[Sascha Franck]

swing isn't a static thing, that's in the rhythm. The structure is still triplet oriented, though.

Err... sorry, but that still gets a no!
It *could* perhaps be triplet oriented (and as said, it sometimes *is* easier to learn/approach it that way), but the majority of swing sheets you'll find are 8th based, really.
Swing, in a nutshell, is offbeat 8ths "tending towards the last triplet 8th", but the sheer organisation will still happen in straight 8th notation. Even in advanced Big Band scores (which are like the Formula One of written down swing). And yes, I had to play that shit...

You just shift those damn offbeat 8ths back in time. Anything else is *exactly* as with even 8ths. The triplet approach, in 95% of all cases, is nothing else but a vehicle.

[Toxikator]

Meh. I stick to my views but with Nuffink and Hink being mean-spirited I figure it's better to just say "okay".

So, "okay".