Help on understanding time signatures.

[nuffink]

Well, the argument is ok.

But the belittling, name calling and rudeness do get sort of tiresome.

I mean, can't you tell someone they are wrong without calling them an idiot?

Ok. You can be the referee



Since, sadly, you're another one who'd rather comment on a thread than get involved.

[Hink]

I'm disrupting it?

not tremendously no, so why bother?

Well I could go the funny route or get serious...



But hey... I gave everyone the funny option.

don't quit your day job

[Amberience]

I don't have a day job. Or a night job.

[dreamkeeper]

But each and every person with a clue will clearly notice that out of the three versions, while none of them fits properly, the straight 8ths will fit best.

Well, I certainly don't have a clue, in fact my feel for rhythm is baaaad... But to me the last example does sound the most fitting.

However, the other ones are interesting as well. Would you agree that jazz musicians are often using that contrast between "true" swing and tight triplets/shuffle deliberately to create tension? As for your example, one could easily envision the synth doing some sort of a solo that constantly alters between and plays with those signatures to produce shifting (poly-?) rhythms.

BTW: Thanks for the great example, as well as for your other contributions. I'm starting now to collect some your posts. You're a great teacher!

Ich wünsch Dir ein Besinnliches Fest!
werner

EDIT: Sheesh! What happened to this thread while I was typing? Chill out, folks, will ya?

[Amberience]

One world cup and two world wars.. doo dahh... doo dah...

Ok, I'm gone. Gonna rot my brain with some television. Y'all take care now.

[RTaylor]

i've been in a mind frame of greatly expanding my musical tastes,

Check your local library.

I'll throw in a recommendation for emusic (dot com) as a cheap source of lots of out-of-mainstream music.

They have lots by Khaled, Amadou and Mariam, Ali Farka Toure, .... just to mention some stuff that interests me.

Victor.

Capitalist.

[Toxikator]

(Many) more experiments based on the example Sascha posted (more specifically, trying to emulate it for my own counterexperiments) reveal that the "swung" rhythms come across more clearly when the swung note is shifted back from its original position. Especially at higher tempos.

Just like you said.



I'm gonna go now.
(Nuffink's still a dick)

Tox

EDIT: well, wrong though I was on every count, I still think that it's triplet-based. It is not at all the same as triplets in even the remotest sense, but from a completely different perspective the fact that triplet fills and rolls feel so natural in the form indicate that there MUST be a connection.

I just no longer feel able to discern what it is.

[Sascha Franck]

Would you agree that jazz musicians are often using that contrast between "true" swing and tight triplets/shuffle deliberately to create tension?

Defenitely!
At least the good ones are perfectly aware of it and superimposing all sorts of feels permanently. To me, trying to play more evenly when the backing music is swinging a lot, often seems to add some sort of "lazy" feel, whereas overemphasizing swing usually feels rushed.
Add to all this that proper players usually fool around with the feel generally. So, not only that swung notes don't represent either 8ths nor triplets, now the onbeat quarters are shifted in time as well. IMO being aware of these things is what's making up for a good jazz musician.

EDIT: Sheesh! What happened to this thread while I was typing? Chill out, folks, will ya?

Yeah, it's quite weird how these things are happening.
I mean, ok, we had some sort of heated debate, but at least it's been a debate, whereas now it starts to turn into the usual one-liner-addon-post-but-let-me-better-quote-half-the-thread-in-it thing.

[herodotus]

sadly, you're another one who'd rather comment on a thread than get involved.

Oh, but I did try to get involved almost 10 pages ago

I've got to say, guys, that you seem to be kind of fetishistic about this 'swing isn't just triplets' issue.

Sometimes triplets can be a better way of conveying certain rhythmic ideas in songs that could be said to 'swing'. It depends on the musicians, their background, and the meter of the song.

Remember, notation isn't some sort of ontological bedrock for musical truth. Its a convenient method of conveying musical ideas to other musicians.

A vital part of the musical traditions related to swing is the direct real time communication between musicians that makes notational fetishism (which might make sense if we were talking about the music of an anal retentive nut like Milton Babbit) unnecessary.

Lighten up.

[rachmiel]

> how is all this bickering helping music

the bickering IS music.

[nuffink]

sadly, you're another one who'd rather comment on a thread than get involved.

Oh, but I did try to get involved almost 10 pages ago

I've got to say, guys, that you seem to be kind of fetishistic about this 'swing isn't just triplets' issue.

Sometimes triplets can be a better way of conveying certain rhythmic ideas in songs that could be said to 'swing'. It depends on the musicians, their background, and the meter of the song.

Remember, notation isn't some sort of ontological bedrock for musical truth. Its a convenient method of conveying musical ideas to other musicians.

A vital part of the musical traditions related to swing is the direct real time communication between musicians that makes notational fetishism (which might make sense if we were talking about the music of an anal retentive nut like Milton Babbit) unnecessary.

Lighten up.

So? I don't get it. Nobody was rude to you. Have you got the hump because nobody replied?

[Deric]

OK (I haven't even got to Sascha's example yet - still getting the basics of Toxicator's Benny Goodman posted example sorted out) so...

I've been listening to the three bars (I make three anyway!) at roughly 2:04-2:10 (and eq'd the clarinet out as much as I could quickly) and this is what I'm currently understanding about what I hear (taking the quiet horn chords as the 1 of each bar):

1. The drummer plays 8 beats per bar.
2. -"- beats are all evenly spaced (time).
3. -"- accents (volume) every other beat.
4. Of 3. it is the odd beats that are accented (at eight beats per bar - 1,3,5,7 are 'louder' than 2,4,6,8 ).
5. Despite 2. the sound has (as Toxicator put it) has a 'lilt' or swing.

What is making it sound like this (swing) if the beats are all evenly spaced?

Why isn't this two beats to the bar with each beat being worth a half-bar? i.e. Why isn't this 2/2 and the horn's chords last four bars instead of one?

i.e. I find this very easy to count the drummer as 1-2, 1-2, 1-2, etc.

Sorry to go back a bunch of steps and can only say that I'm sure I'm not the only one that an answer will help!

[Toxikator]

Count it as "1-n2-n1-n2-n". Focus in on even smaller notes.

[Deric]

@herodotus, personally I thought

Since, sadly, you're another one who'd rather comment on a thread than get involved.

Was aimed at the drunk that stumbled in and not you...?

[nuffink]

@herodotus, personally I thought

Since, sadly, you're another one who'd rather comment on a thread than get involved.

Was aimed at the drunk that stumbled in and not you...?

No it was aimed at herodotus. He's forgotten more about this stuff than most of us will ever know (me definitely included), yet he'd rather sit on the sidelines and berate people for their manners.