Why is electronic dance music typically very simple?

[RTaylor]

The thread's about the relative complexity of dance music. Dance is an art form, as is music, etc, etc...

No it's not, it's about "Why is electronic dance music typically very simple?"

By "simple" you mean "it's just simple"?

Now you're confusing physical agility, disciplined strength and eye-limb coordination with an intellectual exercise. In your rather non sequitor example, a cockroach walking on your ceiling has a much greater intellect than Jennifer Biel or Bruce Li or Stephen Hawking

Not at all. Dance as well as the martial arts requires considerable mental discipline as well as considerable thought. {The same holds true for most if the humanities, philosophy, the inexact sciences, literature, etc, etc...} That's not exactly true of most of the stuff they play in clubs these days but it is true of many forms of dance.

Paste either of these into google and you'll get an idea: "martial arts mental", "ballet dance mental". Dance simply requires a different sort of "intellectual exercise". You can't possibly believe that dancing the lead role in any major dance piece doesn't require one to use a huge amount of intellectual muscle, can you?

Bollocks! It requires the same sort of "huge intellectual muscle" as pole vaulting, wrestling, or any sort of gymnastics. You're confusing 'mental discipline' with "a huge amount of intellectual muscle".

I might argue that wrestling takes a bit of intellect as well... all those split second decisions and fancy moves to remember, responses to evaluate, ideas to consider and so on. You've simply fallen prey to the idea that one sort of mental activity is more "intellectual" than another. ...thoughts about quarks are somehow superior to thoughts about interpreting a specific mood or sound or character's response to a specific stimuli, etc, etc, etc... Again... "it depends on the dancer".

When the ballerina takes steroids to diminish body fat, increase muscle tone and to make her jump higher and spin faster and increase her stamina, is she also hoping for the added benefit of increased intellect?

Isn't that irrelevant?

She's a dancer. Complex dance? Yes, but she is busy coordinating complex physical movements, to a theme. She's following a movement map in her cerebelum. Hiphop does the same, regardless of whether it appears less sophisticated to you.

You're missing a large part of what makes "complex" dance complex. Hiphop probably could do the same but it rarely does... much like other less complex variants of electronic dance.

This is just sort of interesting: http://dance.stanford.edu/syllabi/smarter.htm http://web.hep.uiuc.edu/home/g-gollin/d ... ysics.html

A cockroach walking on my ceiling would be dead, but most of that has to do with instinct, natural abilities and so on. If it were trying to do some sort of semaphore move or something and communicate the meaning of life to me it would be a bit different.

You need to learn more about ballet -- Ballet is ALL about romance...

Romance = sex?

Yes, if the dancer is from the planet Krypton, then yes.

If the dancers intent is to get laid, get guys/girls to stare at their wiggling rump or do a striptease you're probably right.

So, it's "alien" to wanna dance and f**k? Most of the daily 'human condition' revolves around procreational activities, although apparently not so much in your particular 'sophisticated' neighbourhood.

I said that?

If their intent is to express something, or work out some new move, see how close they can slam their head to the ground without a concussion, play a part or work off all of last week's angst... it's something entirely different.

Huh?

I think YOU'RE the one from another planet.

I frequently dance with the slamming goal in mind and always with the intent of working off angst. Sometimes I dance to feel or express whatever statement the musician has made... sometimes I just dance to see how fast I can move to a specific song. I rarely think about sex on the dance floor any more than I think about sex the rest of the time. The only times I can think of when that might be true are when I take enough time off from risking a concussion to watch a particularly effective "mating dance", wriggling rump or a particularly hot woman in particularly expressive clothing.

I'm not alone in this.

[maxhodges1]

The stiff, self-conscious, schizophrenic spasms and gyrations of dance in modern, Western-style dance clubs is a pathetic, anemic ghost of what dancing has meant and still means in many other societies.

Perhaps the same could be said about a lot of the music played in those same clubs.

This review says it the best:

Generally speaking, world-music influenced dance music of the West (including hip hop) has for the most part merely sampled sonic textures of Arabic and Indian music, cutting and looping intervals of time to fit evenly within the context of four/four rhythm. This monotonously repetitive rhythm fades easily into the background of a club in Western culture and has unconsciously become an instinctive way for the West to dance. Western trance music, for example has tended to stick to a four/four hypnotic rhythm that exhausts the mind of the listener into a trance while the East takes the concept of mixing spirituality and music a step further. There needs to exist more of a musical discourse between the East and West in bridging the gap of genres (among other things). Luckily compilations like Arabian Travels 2 exist and this is a step in the right direction.

Morrocan jajouka, along with trance music from India is found predominantly in the five/four or five/eight time signature creating mesmerizing rhythm and melodies. The Middle and Far East's interpretation of trance pushes the human mind and forces it to rationalize the likes of awkward and strange time signatures. This type of music becomes a type of spiritual expression, creating a much more enlightened version of trance music.

<review of Arabian Travels 2>
The compilation offers music of the Middle East influenced by Western dance music and not the other way around.

[Igor 4000]

The stiff, self-conscious, schizophrenic spasms and gyrations of dance in modern, Western-style dance clubs is a pathetic, anemic ghost of what dancing has meant and still means in many other societies.

Says who? You and the reviewer you quoted? Have you ever been to Shelter in New York? Or Body and Soul? I assure you that those people had as much a spiritual experience as anyone dancing to the Morrocan jajouka.

[shinken]

The rhythmic music of north Africa and India and in-between lands is much more developed and sophisticated than anything you will hear in a commercial dance club.

Folk and classical music forms are least susceptible to change. Contrast this to, for example, old FM tracker modules, which sounded amazing at the time but when I heard a few of them again yesterday they sounded very tired and not cutting-edge at all. Same goes for today's commercial dance music in NY superclubs.

[Igor 4000]

I don't understand...more sophisticated in what sense? Go and google Osunlade and tell me those aren't sophisticated african rhythms. I think the problem is that many of you have very limited experience with "dance music", and thus have a very narrow scope of understanding it. Dance music is a lot more complicated that big commercial dance clubs and commercial radio.

[Chuck E. Jesus]

Folk and classical music forms are least susceptible to change. Contrast this to, for example, old FM tracker modules, which sounded amazing at the time but when I heard a few of them again yesterday they sounded very tired and not cutting-edge at all. Same goes for today's commercial dance music in NY superclubs.

[eduardo_b]

Asking why dance music is simple is like asking why tires are round

So you're saying there's no reason to bother asking because it's a given? Not actually arguing against this because I think there's real merit to the simplicity of simplicity. It just is.

But one could postulate that as long as the beat is unmistakably there, it doesn't really matter how complicated the layers above it are. It's the simplicity of the beat that is essential.

[shinken]

In reply to Igor, the type of electronic dance music that's played in pubs and clubs at happy hour here in the UK reflects a certain arrogance that assumes that if music is supposed be rhythmic or have prominent percussion parts, then it must be so simple (dumbed-down) that even a cat or a dog or a pigeon drunk or not would understand it (just imagine a 4-to-the-floor boom boom sound, with whoompa-whoompa bass and Cher-effect vocals). Whereas in Africa, the Middle East and India, rhythmic music follows prescribed traditional patterns (i.e. there's a sense of repertoire) and is associated with serious purposes (e.g. the talking drums, summoning of spirits, healings, etc.). Furthermore the percussionists enjoy a very exalted social status and in many cases are the custodians of ancient traditions that have been passed on through the generations, for centuries. That's why I say it's more sophisticated.

[Igor 4000]

Have you seen what some of the well-known DJs get paid? And the number of people that they draw to hear them play beats? Seems like they're revered as well. It's all relative.

[shinken]

Have you seen what some of the well-known DJs get paid? And the number of people that they draw to hear them play beats? Seems like they're revered as well. It's all relative.

Respectfully, I disagree about this. The vast majority of artists don't consider market success to be any indication of the quality of their output, and are rather more discriminating about who their audience is than the record players who are just in it for some easy money.
The audience is capable of being divided into classes. The sort of people who just want a thump-thump sound on a Friday night might be there for any of the following reasons: to show their colleagues/boss that they're one of the lads, to forget their troubles in a haze of drink or drugs or both, on the "hunt" for some meat, etc. Whatever their reasons are, the fact is that they all must pay at the door. The superstar DJ probably can't even play a drum. Nowadays, he could even be stone-deaf and still be a superstar DJ. But not in a million years could you compare him to an Ashanti shaman!

Whereas traditional folk and classical artists are more likely to be playing for a particular type of audience demographic, and in many cases the audience is aware of the theory and tradition behind the music being played.

I do understand your point about a lot of people liking the simplistic beats, but perhaps that's because this tradition is only 1 or 2 generations old and the people are a bit dislocated because of future shock, and the music will become more complex and meaningful with the passage of time. Anyway, different strokes for different folks.

[kostagem]

Nowadays, he could even be stone-deaf and still be a superstar DJ.

Today's technology enables people, that otherwise could not be into the music business, to produce catchy and dancable little pieces of music.

It takes little skill to figure out how an arpreggiator works, then strike a few chords, put a tb303 to do the bass, tweak a few knobs, and ah! instant dance music. Maybe not good dance music, but it definately sounds like music, and some people might think its good music, and they sure going to dance, given a drink or two...

[thecontrolcentre]

It takes little skill to figure out how an arpreggiator works, then strike a few chords, put a tb303 to do the bass, tweak a few knobs, and ah! instant dance music.

Its just not that easy ... i spent a few hours last week trying to show someone how to program a straight 4/4 beat using Live5 and a drum machine VST. He can play keyboards much better than i can ... but can he program a beat? No chance ... it takes skill to even know where the beat is supposed to fall. If it was so easy we'd all be superstar dance producers.

[kostagem]

Its just not that easy ... i spent a few hours last week trying to show someone how to program a straight 4/4 beat using Live5 and a drum machine VST.

Few hours? That's not a lot.

Compare this to teaching somebody how to play the violin, or teach him/her notation, or things like harmony, counterpoint, or writing lyrics that actually make sense and are not a combination of ahhh's oooh's and 'lick my &^%$'... don't get me started

Come on contemporary western dance music can be a child's play.

[thecontrolcentre]

The point is this guy is already a musician ... he plays the organ and the piano ... he's used Cubase for 5 years, but he can't program a beat to save his life.

[maxhodges1]

The stiff, self-conscious, schizophrenic spasms and gyrations of dance in modern, Western-style dance clubs is a pathetic, anemic ghost of what dancing has meant and still means in many other societies.

Says who? You and the reviewer you quoted?

Those were my words, up top, wasn't quoting anyone there.

Have you ever been to Shelter in New York? Or Body and Soul? I assure you that those people had as much a spiritual experience as anyone dancing to the Morrocan jajouka.

No I haven't been to Shelter or Body and Soul. But I do live in Tokyo; it's not exactly in the woods.

Estimated population:
1. Tokyo-Yokohama, Japan - 33,200,000
2. New York, United States - 17,800,000

I've also lived in China, and have traveled in Brazil, Thailand, Taiwan, Korea, Mexico and France--and was born and grew up in the US.

OK, well I admit my post was a bit trollish, but I went to a Goldie w/Metalheadz show just last weekend here in Tokyo (at Unit), and the music and the dancing was just spiritually bankrupt. The music was in fact spiritually, emotionally, and politically void of any meaning what so ever. The MC would not shut the f**k up and he only repeated mindless drivel like "TOKYO! TOKYO! TOKYO!" and "I LOVE THE DRUMS I LOVE THE BASS I LOVE THE DRUMS I LOVE THE BASS" I was embarassed for him. The music sounded good and the sound system was incredible--but if just got old pretty quick. Speaking for myself, and from what the others I talked to after the show had to say, it was a disappointing experience.

I guess this doesn't really add to the thread...

Someone mentioned Classical Music being stale, but if you're intersted in percussion get a copy of Stravinksky's "The Rite of Spring" Kirov Orchestra does it the best. This piece is 100 years old, but most music today can't hold a candle to it's sonic and harmonic richness and rhythmic complexity. "classical music" is still cutting edge in terms of arrangement. If you're looking for inspirational arrangement, look to classical music. Unfortuntately the tradition and innovations in music of this sort was derailed by the popularity of jazz and later rock. But I think there's a limitless wealth of good ideas to be mined from the classics. just look at what Venetian Snares did with "Rossz Csillag Allat Szuletett"

Keep on rockin in the free world!