Voicing Stuff

[JumpingJackFlash]

Great stuff, Jack. I had almost forgotten about all that (even if I had to learn it back then), nice to see it written down.
One question though (probably a language thing or so?):

A lower note in a chord may never rise above a higher note in that chord (and vice versa).

What do you mean by "rise"? That is: How would/could it rise?

Sorry, I probably didn't explain that properly, see this example:



The lines in red indicate what I mean. Notice how, in the first example, the alto rises above the soprano, and in the second, the soprano falls below the alto. This is generally not good practice.

Notice between the 3rd and 4th beats, the alto moves up to, but does not rise *above* the soprano (D), this is acceptable.

Also note, the blue line on beat 3 indicate I have crossed parts! - The tenor is higher than the alto!! (This is not usually recommended).

I've probably got a shed load more mistakes in this as I've just knocked it up quickly, but hopefully it demonstrates what I was trying to say?

[Sascha Franck]

Ah, I see. I sort of knew this (but really, only sort of). Thanks for the detailed explanation.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Because some people have asked about writing for (French) Horns, I will give a bit of info, mostly historical, that might give you more realistic sounding Horns.

In times gone by, Horns (and Trumpets) were natural. That is, they had no valves, and were restricted to playing notes of the overtone series. (up to about the 12th partial, but not including the fundamental).

Things called 'crooks' were fitted to the horn to change the fundamental (and thus, also its overtones). This allowed you to play in different keys. Some good players were also able to stop the horn with their hand, allowing them to alter the tuning of some of the notes and thus play slightly outside the overtone series (although such notes sounded duller).

The horn is a transposing instrument, always sounding lower than written. Parts would always be written in C (treble clef), but that could sound anything from a major 2nd lower (Bb alto crook) up to a minor 10th lower (A basso crook) (they could also play as written using a C alto crook).

In orchestral work, horns were grouped together in pairs. The first horn played a high part, and the second played the lower part. In later scores, you would get 4 horns, with horns 1 and 3 playing the high part(s), and horns 2 and 4 playing the low part(s). Sometimes these horns used different crooks.
(Low was roughly written range C2-G4, and high was written around C3-C5). (With middleC=C3)

Because horn parts were restricted to the overtone series, certain melodic formulas kept cropping up time and time again. These are very idiomatic, almost to the point of being a classical cliché (particularly at cadences):



Overtime, the tone of the F crook was favoured over many of the other crooks. This eventually led to the development of the Valve Horn in the 19th century. (Along with Trombones and Tubas, both of which have always used valves and are notated at concert pitch).

The valve horn is what we use today. It is in F, sounding a perfect 5th lower than written. The use of valves meant crooks were no-longer needed, and horns could produce notes well outside the overtone series. The modern horn has a sounding range from B0-F4, with an effective (sounding) playing range of C2-G4.

Nevertheless, if you want a horn part to sound idiomatic, it is worth remembering the overtone series. Furthermore, because a horn player must 'hear' the pitch in his head before playing it, very fast passages and large leaps are not usually written. Nowadays, the horn is sometimes grouped in with the woodwind, and sometimes grouped with the brass, depending on the composer (Sometimes it also doubles cello).

Other than that, all standard rules of harmony and voice leading apply to horns, just as with any other instrument.

[VicDiesel]

1) 7 (j7) for 1.
Only applies for those chord forms that don't allready have a 7th present. In case you're dealing with j7 chords, make sure not to play the root above the j7, as it will create an unwanted b2 or b9 tension (as said, there's exceptions, but not for now).

what's worng with tension? I agree that I'd never play b-d-f#-g (bottom to top) but d-f#-g-b is a lovely voicing.

Victor.

[VicDiesel]

Amin7 could be extended with a 9th and an 11th (the 13th would clash with the 7th).

Nothing wrong with clashing. I mean, you're putting 6 notes in a chord, so something's bound to clash.

To me the problem with the 13 in a II chord is that it is the same note as the 3 or the V, so you sort of lose the II-V-I feel: it kinda become V-V-I.

Victor.

[Sascha Franck]

Vic:
A) I missed posting that I meant the root to be the top note, in your voicing it's working absolutely fine, the same goes for F#-G-B-D.
B) I have no problems with clashings at all. But for a start, you should just tend to avoid them.

[VicDiesel]

Notice how, in the first example, the alto rises above the soprano, and in the second, the soprano falls below the alto. This is generally not good practice.

In music after 1550 or so. Before that the countertenor is allowed, almost encouraged, to jump all over the aural spectrum.

Victor.

[Scoops]

Ok

So here's another approach to voicing

Given that (purely subjective)
m2nd = dissonant
M2nd = dissonant
m3rd = harmonic
M3rd = harmonic
P4th = neutral
P5th = neutral
m6th = harmonic
M6th = harmonic
m7th = dissonant
M7th = dissonant

Create harmonic voicings based on perception of sound on above formula
Say for example I want to create a passage that is harmonically
easy to listen to, and grow it to something that has alot of tension

I would start with a series of chords that have a majority of harmonics (3rd's and 6th's), and
then as the piece developes, move to chord that has more dissonant intervals (2nd's and 7th's)

Oh there are so many ways to skin a cat

Scps

[deastman]

Thank you for sharing all this info. Can you recommend any books or other sites on voice leading?

[Paulie Phonick]

Thank you for sharing all this info.

+1 ! Great stuff here. If only bloody Xmas and my bloody job weren't keeping me from sitting down and experimenting with those ideas right away

[Scoops]

Did anybody notice the new catagory "Music theory"?

Perfect place for this sorta stuff

Scoops

[Sascha Franck]

Did anybody notice the new catagory "Music theory"?

Perfect place for this sorta stuff

Yeah, cool thing.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Ok

So here's another approach to voicing

Given that (purely subjective)
m2nd = dissonant
M2nd = dissonant
m3rd = harmonic
M3rd = harmonic
P4th = neutral
P5th = neutral
m6th = harmonic
M6th = harmonic
m7th = dissonant
M7th = dissonant

Create harmonic voicings based on perception of sound on above formula
Say for example I want to create a passage that is harmonically
easy to listen to, and grow it to something that has alot of tension

I would start with a series of chords that have a majority of harmonics (3rd's and 6th's), and
then as the piece developes, move to chord that has more dissonant intervals (2nd's and 7th's)

Oh there are so many ways to skin a cat

Scps

While correct, it depends on what sort of music you're writing. The perfect 4th for example (in two-part intervals) was considered a discord in times gone by, but we are much more used to hearing them now, so they don't appear as dissonant to our ears.

Also, the minor 3rd, while not a discord in itself; if you pile a few of these on top of each other, you'll end up with a diminished chord, which, as most people know, is rather dissonant (because each note has a dissonant relationship with at least one other due to the presence of diminished 5ths).

I guess I tend to prefer the 18th century approach where homophony reigns and harmony is based on triads. Whereas you might take the 16th century approach, which is polyphonic, with harmony based on the superimposition of two-part intervals. - Either approach is fine I guess.