Help on understanding time signatures.

[Deric]

Toxicator, with yours and nuffink's help I might just get this!...

Can you elaborate on your "1-n2-n1-n" response please? i.e. could you try and explain what you are trying to convey for, say, a two bar example please?

nuffink, Sascha, (and anyone else) how would you try and suggest I hear this? (2:04-2:10)



Now I MUST press Pause on that damn loop for a minute or two!

[Deric]

No it was aimed at herodotus.

Oh OK.

[herodotus]

No it was aimed at herodotus. He's forgotten more about this stuff than most of us will ever know (me definitely included), yet he'd rather sit on the sidelines and berate people for their manners.

You flatter me.

Well if you really want to know, I think that for analysis and for sequencer programming, triplets, or (much better), eighth notes in compound meter, are generally more useful for dealing with swing time.

I mean, yes I know that jazz is an infinitely subtle players art that will never truly fit on a grid and all that, but if the choice is between straight eighth notes and triplets (and that is the choice that our woefully imperfect notation presents us with) then I will almost always go for the triplets. Especially if the musicians for whom it is intended are either A: a sequencer, or B: unfamiliar with the traditions and conventions of jazz.

There are qualifications of course:

As Sascha has noted, some jazz does employ really fast tempi, and there is no doubt that the usefulness of using triplets will be attenuated to the point of nonexistence when such tempi are used.

If one is writing for experienced jazz players, one would of course use the traditional straight eighth 'real book' mode of writing referred to by Sascha . But I have got to say that I would feel very uncomfortable about giving out one of my own scores (as opposed to, say, an arrangement made for hire) in this sort of notation, unless I could be there to help interpret the ambiguities. Because a sheet of swing music that is written like this is filled with all sorts of ambiguities.

Jazz easily tolerates these sorts of ambiguities; and indeed thrives on them, because it is essentially a players art. The musical tradition that our notation derives from is a composers art.

Whether you use triplets, compound time or straight time in your notation, its all at best an analogy, because notation wasn't really meant to deal with the sort of subtle rhythmic variations of an art form that stresses improvisation and real time personal interpretations of common melodies and changes.

So there you have it.

[Amberience]

I was watching scrubs. It is good. I like.

[No name]

Ahh, you know what, I need to go even more basic (and off topic) here. I'm having another problem that I feel is even more fundamental than the time signatures.

What the hell is the difference between minor and major scales? I mean, what the hell is the point? Are they all not the same keys, but they just start on a different key? Is this just me who feels that this is just making what could be simple, harder? Or am I just not seeing the point, I thought there was one, but it escapes me.

[JumpingJackFlash]

What the hell is the difference between minor and major scales? I mean, what the hell is the point? Are they all not the same keys, but they just start on a different key? Is this just me who feels that this is just making what could be simple, harder? Or am I just not seeing the point, I thought there was one, but it escapes me.

See:

Major
Minor
Major and Minor
and Key

[No name]

Ahh, man, I knew that already! The difference is so plain.

It's not so much the fact that they can start on the same notes as much as the intervals between any two notes in the different scales.

That's the part that was escaping me.

Thanks. I actually read it a few times in my book, but this shit is just taking forever to really sink in. I've already read over it twice, and I forget it later on, and it stumps me!

[Deric]

No Name wouldn't it make sense to post this as a new thread, particularly to keep topics specific, for later use etc?

[No name]

Maybe, but i'm personally a neat freak. I've gotten the gist of time signatures now, as much as i'll get without actually hearing them and all at least. What i'm gonna do is this...get on my Korg TR tonight, and change the time signatures, and experiment with making drum lines in various signatures. That way i'll be able to hear it in my mind and become familiar with it.

I suppose I should have, but it was just one small simple question which has been anwsered now, that's it. It wasn't so much a "I don't know it" than it was a "I need someone to refresh me".
Anyways, back on topic.

[Deric]

I've re-read this thread and will say that if it wasn't for Toxicator's continued insistence that his(?) understanding was fact, and the continued efforts of (several of) the other contributors to correct him that a great deal of the detail, knowledge, and experience, simply wouldn't have been included.

When one knows very little, or less, about a topic but has deemed it is time to learn it is all very confusing when two 'sides' disagree - particularly when, ultimately, incorrect notions are presented as hard, unequivocal, facts in a logical manner.

I'm grateful to those that have maintained their patience with this thread and taken the time to explain 'why' the facts are what they are.

Thanks again,

Deric.

Ps. As for my questions on this (and the previous) page, forget it. I think I may have the necessary tools now to figure it out for myself, but if I don't I know where to come!

[No name]

I think that i've furthered my understanding on it a bit. For some reason, and correct me if i'm wrong, i'm thinking of things, and trying to understand, all of these different time signatures in relation to 4/4. I just read some that was clear to me...a quarter note IS the basic beat in 4/4, so it is one two three four. While, say, 5/8 would be along the lines of..one and two and three and one and two and three and one...is this makingin any sense? Let me know if I should clarify.

I was thinking...well...5/8...tryna figure it out...but tryna use a quarter note as the basic beat to understand 5/8, and I think that is what was throwing me off here.

Let me read a little more deeply and soak a little more in.

EDIT:I messed up...it would be ONE and TWO and THREE ONE AND....so on...I actuall just did 5/8 on my TR. Good God! I didn't know where in the hell to place things! I like it though, it's new to me. It actually almost has a "swing" feel to it.

[Hovmod]

[maxhodges1]

> music professor that we can ask to come and shed some light

i qualify (in terms of diplomas and work experience) and would be happy to give it a try. it's best if you ask specific questions; i'm more of a socratic method guy than a lecturer.

OK well here is one issue that is lingering:

OOps! Posted a bad link. here is the linkl

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 62#2283362

[Voidoid Surrealist]

Jove Male Mome 18/8

WOW...

what a cool groove this piece has.

(I have to admit I tried counting to it and ended up with 6 beats)

Where can I listen-to/buy more music like this. Does anyone know who the singer is. Awesome singing style.

Yeah, that's my fav of the lot.
The group is the Nama Orchestra.
Not sure how you got 6 beats, but it can be rather confusing as it goes by pretty fast in this pattern: 322+22322


If you like that sort of thing, I'd highly recommend picking up Village and Folk Music of Bulgaria, BǕlgari, or Beyond the Mystery, Vol. 1-3.

[Deric]

Hmmm... that didn't take long...

Could anyone please explain 4/2 ???

If I understand this correctly this is a Simple Time signature, and if so, how can you have 4 beats of a half-note length/duration in one bar??