Help on understanding time signatures.

[duncanparsons]

Hmmm... that didn't take long...

Could anyone please explain 4/2 ???

If I understand this correctly this is a Simple Time signature, and if so, how can you have 4 beats of a half-note length/duration in one bar??

simple.. it just is what you said, 4 minims in a bar. It's a rather plodding march-like affair. I doubt you will see it much, but for some legato passages, the phrasing may suggest that 4/2 is more correct than 2 bars of 4/4 or a single bar of 8/4..

as we have seen, these are not vulgar fractions (or surds), nor ratios or percentages, it is a counter with an indication of duration

HTH
DSP

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, very often stuff is notated "alla breve" (halftime) meaning there's 8ths instead of 16ths and so on. A pain in the rear to deal with. You have that 16th feel but it's all 8ths and the bars pass by as fast as it could get.
I'm playing a musical right now, and the MD has notated most of the stuff alla breve, plain freaking horrible.

[Deric]

Thanks for the quick responses!

Perhaps the problem is that I don't understand what a whole note is correctly then? I thought a whole note was a note of sufficient duration to fully occupy one bar, therefore I think that two half notes occupy the 'time available' for one bar.

If the above is true, and 4/2 IS Simple Time - the 4 says that there are 4 beats in the bar, and the 2 says that each beat has a duration of 1/2 of a bar - if this is correct then 4 beats would need two bars no?

What am I missing here?

[Sascha Franck]

I wouldn't happen to know how to explain 4/2 signatures, but there might be some reasons for it.
However, as far as a whole note fitting a bar goes, that's not always true. A whole note is just 4 4th notes in length. So, a 3/4 bar is filled up fine with a dotted half note.

[duncanparsons]

Thanks for the quick responses!

Perhaps the problem is that I don't understand what a whole note is correctly then? I thought a whole note was a note of sufficient duration to fully occupy one bar, therefore I think that two half notes occupy the 'time available' for one bar.

If the above is true, and 4/2 IS Simple Time - the 4 says that there are 4 beats in the bar, and the 2 says that each beat has a duration of 1/2 of a bar - if this is correct then 4 beats would need two bars no?

What am I missing here?

like I say, a tim sig is not a fraction... The 'whole note' thing is misleading, infact I find the whole '1/4', '1/8th' thing unhelpful since, whilst it's convenient, it leads you down a bit of a blind path. Using the traditional terms of 'semi-breve', 'minim', 'crotchet', 'quaver' etc keeps you away from the numbers and that kind of thinking. Suddenly you have 3 crotchets in a bar of 3/4; a bar of 4/2 is just a bar with 4 minims - no worries about whole notes or anything like that..

being able to talk both languages is a helpful thing

DSP

[Deric]

DSP, thanks again!

To be honest I didn't think I was looking at time sig. as a fraction (not since last night anyway!) but was trying the fit my understanding of the definition of Simple Time AND note values/durations into 4/2.

Perhaps I am now at that blind path stage you refer to?

My current understanding is that a Semibreve is a note that has a duration of one complete bar, which led me to believe that you couldn't fit more than one Semibreve in a bar - nor two Minims.

Your post says that you can have four Minims in a bar (as also suggested by a time sig. of 4/2) therefore a Semibreve cannot be a note with a duration equal to one bar, and a Minim is not a note with a duration such that two Minims fill the time available in one bar... If this is correct then how do you determine the duration of a Semibreve (or any other note for that matter) for any given tempo?

[JumpingJackFlash]

DSP, thanks again!

To be honest I didn't think I was looking at time sig. as a fraction (not since last night anyway!) but was trying the fit my understanding of the definition of Simple Time AND note values/durations into 4/2.

Perhaps I am now at that blind path stage you refer to?

My current understanding is that a Semibreve is a note that has a duration of one complete bar, which led me to believe that you couldn't fit more than one Semibreve in a bar - nor two Minims.

Your post says that you can have four Minims in a bar (as also suggested by a time sig. of 4/2) therefore a Semibreve cannot be a note with a duration equal to one bar, and a Minim is not a note with a duration such that two Minims fill the time available in one bar... If this is correct then how do you determine the duration of a Semibreve (or any other note for that matter) for any given tempo?

One semibreve = Two minims = Four crotchets = Eight Quavers = Sixteen Semiquavers etc.

One semibreve does not necessarily equal one bar (it only does in 4/4 ((or 2/2)). Therefore, in time signatures 'less' that 4/4 (3/4, 2/4, 1/2 etc.) a semibreve is too long to fit in one bar, so you would not write any.

In time signatures 'greater' that 4/4 (5/4, 3/2 etc.), you would need more than one semibreve to fill one bar (the semibreve would be tied over to another note).

Note, you would never write semibreves in compound time signatures (6/8 etc.), you would instead use dotted notes (a dotted minim for example) to fill a bar.

It gets confusing when you consider rests. Some people often use a semibreve rest to fill an entire bar, regardless of time signature. - But don't worry about this for now!

[Deric]

Crossfire Hurricane thank you, (ha! Since I'd last posted I've been trying yours and Sascha's tips in the Voicing Stuff thread!)

Thanks for this useful response. I guess it all comes down to accepting the facts (once you know them...) but this does seem a bit crazy to the beginner.

You're saying, and I'm not doubting you - just seeking confirmation, that:

A semibreve (whole note) is a note of duration such that if the time signature is explicitly 4/4 (or 2/2) the note sounds for one whole bar.

So 5/4 could be a semibreve+crotchet? This explains why 4/2 can have four minims as the bar length is two semibreves worth of duration!

I think I've started to catch on...

Now I can understand why duncanparsons said that the notion (of half-note(1/2), quarter-note(1/4), eighth(1/8 ), sixteenth(1/16), etc) is misleading and unhelpful - it's because it is! In fact for non 4/4,2/2 time signatures it's less than unhelpful - it's simply incorrect!

The 1/2,1/4,1/8,1/16 etc notes are values that are only valid if the time sig. is 4/4(or 2/2).

So a 1/4 note (Crotchet) in a 5/4 time signature piece is not a 1/4 note at all - it's a 1/5th note! An eighth(1/8 ) note is actually a tenth(1/10), and a 1/16th is actually a 1/20th and so on...

What a mess!



I really hope I've got this right as the above now, finally, makes sense, especially with my better understanding of time signatures...

Wow, the last 24-hours have finally seen the penny drop for me on these two, related, subjects.

Thanks a huge amount - I feel I've really learnt this.

This place is great!

[dreamkeeper]

So a 1/4 note (Crotchet) in a 5/4 time signature piece is not a 1/4 note at all - it's a 1/5th note! An eighth(1/8 ) note is actually a tenth(1/10), and a 1/16th is actually a 1/20th and so on...

You're mixing up notes with bars here.

The note value only makes a statement about its duration, NOT about the fraction of a bar the note occupies. Assuming a tempo of exactly 120bpm (beat = quarternote) a whole note always lasts for 2 seconds - REGARDLESS of the time signature.

In your example you can say that 5 crochets will fill one bar, but not that these are 1/5 notes. There's NO general relationship between note values and bars.

werner

[VicDiesel]

Hmmm... that didn't take long...

Could anyone please explain 4/2 ???

If I understand this correctly this is a Simple Time signature, and if so, how can you have 4 beats of a half-note length/duration in one bar??

You seem to have an implicit assumption that a "bar" is 4 beats and that a beat is a quarter note. Well, in this case your bar has indeed 4 beats (that's what the "4" is for), but each beat is a half note (the "2"). That's all.

The denominator number is really pretty irrelevant. It's a notattional convention. If you play the piece, I can't tell from listening whether it was written in 4/2, 4/4, 4/8, 4/16.....

simple.. it just is what you said, 4 minims in a bar. It's a rather plodding march-like affair.

"Plodding"? Why on earth? It depends on how fast you play it.

When I play renaissance music, we regularly play pieces in 4/1, with the whole note 60 or 70 per minute. I assure you it doesn't plod.

Victor.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Now I can understand why duncanparsons said that the notion (of half-note(1/2), quarter-note(1/4), eighth(1/8 ), sixteenth(1/16), etc) is misleading and unhelpful - it's because it is! In fact for non 4/4,2/2 time signatures it's less than unhelpful - it's simply incorrect!

The 1/2,1/4,1/8,1/16 etc notes are values that are only valid if the time sig. is 4/4(or 2/2).

So a 1/4 note (Crotchet) in a 5/4 time signature piece is not a 1/4 note at all - it's a 1/5th note! An eighth(1/8 ) note is actually a tenth(1/10), and a 1/16th is actually a 1/20th and so on...

No. The reason people (in America) call them 'quarter notes', 'eighth notes' etc. is because they always last a quarter (or an eighth or whatever) as long as a semibreve (whole note) regardless of time signature.

So, a crotchet (quarter note) is always 1/4 the value of one semibreve, or put another way, 4 crotchets always make up 1 semibreve.
A minim (half note) is always 1/2 the value of a semibreve (2 minims make up 1 semibreve).
A quaver (eighth note) is always 1/8 the value of a semibreve (8 quavers make up 1 semibreve).
etc.

This is always true regardless of time signature. (In other words, how long the bars are is completely irrelevant.)

(Note also, triplet crotchets are each 1/3 the value of a minim, or 1/6 the value of a semibreve).

[Deric]

Assuming a tempo of exactly 120bpm (beat = quarternote) a whole note always lasts for 2 seconds - REGARDLESS of the time signature.

Agreed 100%.

In your example you can say that 5 crochets will fill one bar, but not that these are 1/5 notes. There's NO general relationship between note values and bars.

werner, I'd suggest that there IS a relationship between note values and bars once the time signature is known, but would again agree 100% (as of today) that there is no general relationship.

It could be agreed that this is not standard terminology (or even desired) but the fact that (in the example) five crotchets fill one bar means that they are, effectively, in this instance - 1/5th notes.

I was using this example to show how incorrect the notion of a crotchet=1/4 is, it followed from my re-evaluation of my understanding of notes after duncanparsons' post that the terms 1/4,1/8,1/16 etc are misleading.

I'd, previously (up until today), understood that 'the black stick with the solid blob' (crotchet) was a quarter note, and referred to notes as 1/8ths, 1/16ths etc etc (no formal training/learning background...) - but now I see this usage is ONLY relevant to 4/4 (and 2/2) time... (as JumpingJackFlash pointed out).

Again I was trying to convey that I'd understood that thinking about note durations as 'fractions of a bar' is too ambiguous (and simply incorrect beyond 4/4) as the number of any note type that can 'fit' into bar is dependant only on the time signature.

Please correct me on any of the above I just want to 'get this thing nailed'!

You seem to have an implicit assumption that a "bar" is 4 beats and that a beat is a quarter note.

Victor, the assumption I had had was that (what I had been calling a 'Whole Note') a SemiBreve had the duration of one bar - in general. This is why I could not understand how four minims could exist within one bar.

I had believed, incorrectly, that the reason it was called a Whole Note was because it filled a whole bar... I hadn't considered that this understanding may only be relative to a particular time signature at all... Hence the source of the (much!) confusion.

OK, now... is what I've just written a load of rubbish? It makes perfect sense to me now so I'm hoping it isn't (rubbish)!

[JumpingJackFlash]

It could be agreed that this is not standard terminology (or even desired) but the fact that (in the example) five crotchets fill one bar means that they are, effectively, in this instance - 1/5th notes.

In 5/4, one crotchet does last 1/5th of a bar, but that is irrelevant to everything. It is not a good way to look at things. Notes are notes, they are not dependant on time signature. - Forget time signatures, that's just confusing you. Like I said before, it's called a 'quarter' note because it is one quarter of a semibreve, always, in every time signature.

I'd, previously (up until today), understood that 'the black stick with the solid blob' (crotchet) was a quarter note, and referred to notes as 1/8ths, 1/16ths etc etc (no formal training/learning background...) - but now I see this usage is ONLY relevant to 4/4 (and 2/2) time... (as JumpingJackFlash pointed out).

No. If anything, I was trying to point out the opposite! The time signature makes no difference.
They are NOT fractions of a bar, they are fractions of a semibreve.
One semibreve does not necessarily equal one bar, but a crotchet is always 1/4 of a semibreve.

[Deric]

JumpingJackFlash,

Thanks for that very clear and concise post.

I now see the errors in the post I've just made such as

I was using this example to show how incorrect the notion of a crotchet=1/4 is... the terms 1/4,1/8,1/16 etc are misleading...this usage is ONLY relevant to 4/4

OK, take-54...

A semibreve is a whole note, a crotchet is a quarter of a whole note (and so on).

In Simple Time the number of notes allowable in a bar is determined by the upper number of the time signature, and the type of note (minim, crotchet, etc) is determind by the lower number.

So 4/4 means there are four crotchets to a bar, 3/4 means there are three crotchets to a bar, 4/2 means there are four minims to a bar, and 2/2 means there are two minims to a bar.

Now if that's correct I need to get that level of understanding with Complex sigs...

[JumpingJackFlash]

OK, take-54...

A semibreve is a whole note, a crotchet is a quarter of a whole note (and so on).

In Simple Time the number of notes allowable in a bar is determined by the upper number of the time signature, and the type of note (minim, crotchet, etc) is determind by the lower number.

So 4/4 means there are four crotchets to a bar, 3/4 means there are three crotchets to a bar, 4/2 means there are four minims to a bar, and 2/2 means there are two minims to a bar.

Now if that's correct I need to get that level of understanding with Complex sigs...

Yes, that is all correct.

It's essentially the same with compound time signatures too (6/8 for example means there are 6 quavers in one bar).

The only difference is the underlining 'beat' is actually a dotted-crotchet (so, 6/8 is two dotted-crotchets in one bar), - but if I were you I wouldn't worry about this for now. Just think of it as 6 quavers and you'll be fine. In fact, make sure you're fully comfortable with simple time signatures before looking at compound ones. (Don't run before you can walk).