Help on understanding time signatures.

[Sascha Franck]

Notes are notes, they are not dependant on time signature.

Exactly. Note length values describe subdivisions whatever music is based on.

Perhaps, one could put it this way: The amount of whatever notes and how they are arranged makes up for a time signature. The time signature doesn't define the "worth" of whatever notes and their subdivisions in the slightest.

Compare it to a pie. When a quarter of the whole thing is missing already and you get another quarter of it, you wouldn't say you had a third of the pie (which your quarter, compared to what's left, would equal), you would still say you had a quarter. At Pizza Hut, when you order a quarter, it'll always be just a quarter, regardless whether there's been a whole pizza or just half of it the moment you ordered. The same is true for a 3/4 bar. Some evil bar munchers already ate the 1/4 it's missing.

[Deric]

Oh-me-oh-my... I just responded to the previous post... gimme a minute to catch up!

Ps. How do I change my KVR ID name again?

Edit: Err... actually there seems to be nearly two pages since reading one of JumpingJackFlash's posts and getting the replies typed... Will read back. Apolgies.

[Sascha Franck]

So 4/4 means there are four crotchets to a bar, 3/4 means there are three crotchets to a bar, 4/2 means there are four minims to a bar, and 2/2 means there are two minims to a bar.

Exactly. Nothing else. And it's rather easy, IMO.

[dreamkeeper]

At Pizza Hut, when you order a quarter, it'll always be just a quarter, regardless whether there's been a whole pizza or just half of it the moment you ordered.

But if it were otherwise they'd need way less pizza. If you're too late, you'd get a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of... or: the later the evening, the shorter the notes, umm...

Deric: I see the experts cleared it up nicely. BTW, I had similar problems to get my head around this. But once you accept the fact, it's easy and makes sense imho.

[Sascha Franck]

But if it were otherwise they'd need way less pizza. If you're too late, you'd get a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of... or: the later the evening, the shorter the notes, umm...

But imagine you were there early. From 10 pizze in total, you'd get 2.5 for a quarter.

[dreamkeeper]

But imagine you were there early. From 10 pizze in total, you'd get 2.5 for a quarter.

Unfortunately that wouldn't swing well with the progression of my hunger...

Ok, back on topic. I guess Deric's cooling his smoking head? There's some snow somewhere?

[No name]

It is much better to just be able to hear it. I keep switching all of the times on my TR, and just listening to the metronome. I suppose the big problem with the time signatures is that it is deceptively easy.

[Deric]

Firstly, thank you to those that have been helping. I realise that, particularly given the order of some of my posts(relative to 'those helping') that it must be quite frustrating and thank you for your continued patience - it is genuinely appreciated. I guess if I was third-party to this I'd also find it quite amusing, another day perhaps as at present I'm somewhat consumed with 'getting' this...

However, as far as a whole note fitting a bar goes, that's not always true. A whole note is just 4 4th notes in length. So, a 3/4 bar is filled up fine with a dotted half note.

Sascha, unfortunately I'd completely missed this post when reading (earlier), this was originally one of my sources of confusion... apologies.

JumpingJackFlash (born in a cross..etc), unfortunatley my replies (page 24(!)) were to your penultimate posts - however in the time it took me to post them it reads as though my posts were as result of your immediatley preceding post... again apologies, it must make for (even more) of a frustrating read.

In future I'll check a thread for further updates, and consider the new content, before re-posting if it's taken me a while to write.

dreamkeeper thank you for your encouraging words.

I agree (both Sascha and dreamkeeper) that it is, ultimately, quite simple - where it becomes more difficult, than it actually 'needs to be' is, is when, as in my case, one has to unpick the incorrect beliefs that one has held.

Don't ask me why but I seem to have demonstrated a subconscious tendency to try and relate this new, corrective, information to my pre-existing incorrect assumptions. I found it quite difficult to just 'start from scratch' with what was being presented - it wasn't intentional. Again thank you(s) for the continued patience, help, and support.

So now I believe that (run for cover):

1. Terms such as crotchet or 1/4-note etc are purely specifying sub-divsions of a semibreve (whole note). Nothing more, nothing less.
They, in no way, suggest any form of subdivision (or fraction) of bar.

2. In Simple Time the upper number specifies the number of beats in one bar, the lower number specifies the note type of each of these beats. Again, and that's all it specifies.

3. Triplet crotchets have a duration of 1/6 of a semibreve - per crotchet, therefore if a bar length could accommodate one semibreve you 'could' replace this one semibreve with two crotchet triplets - i.e. There would be two 'sets'(?) of triplet crotchets in one bar.

4. In Compound Time the lower number has the same basic function as the lower number in Simple Time (specifying the note type), however in Compound Time the basic beat itself is a dotted crotchet - so there is no 'direct/instant' correlation as there is with Simple Time.

In Compound Time if the lower number is an 8, this specifies that quavers (1/8ths (of a semibreve)) are the note type that needs to be 'dotted-crotcheted'(?).

Therefore if the upper number is 6, then you have 6 (upper number) quavers (lower number 8 ) that need to be 'converted' into dotted crotchets. You would have two dotted crotchets per bar. (one dotted crotchet has the same, overall, duration as three quavers - we have 6 quavers therefore we have two dotted crotchets).

If the upper number is 9 then we have three dotted crotchets per bar, (9 quavers(8th notes) 'dotted-crotcheted' equal 3 dotted crotchets.

If the upper number is 12 we have four dotted crotchets per bar (12 quavers(8ths) become 4 dotted crotchets).

I know, and understand, JumpingJackFlash's advice about not trying to run before I can walk etc... but I just feel so close to getting this (after already thinking I'd got it!) that I'd really like to get this bit down...

Is the above correct?

I need a drink...

dreamkeeper... the snow? It melted instantly! Liquid nitrogen may be more approprate!

And Sascha... eat 2.5 pizzas and your fingers will get so fat you won't be able to do those cool bends and vibrato quite so well!

No name I want to really try and 'understand well enough to verbally communicate' it (at least to myself), I hear what you are saying (no pun intended!) but want to understand 'what it is' that I'm hearing when I hear it, but do appreciate that you are trying to help me, thank you!

Apologies too for the length of time it's taken me to respond - I've been 'raising my head temperature' thinking about and trying to verbalise it.

Right, now where's that bloody drink...

[Samb]

Yes, you've got it all correct.

[duncanparsons]

oooh, je suis le chat aux les oisaux!

Sorry for casting nasturtians about fractions.. I've had pupils who have seen '1/8' and made the link to maths, since their teachers at school tell them there are strong links between math and music, but then don't qualify what they have just said

I generally try to ensure that my pupils can speak both 'languages' and that they know both what a '1/4' beat is and what it isn't...

Sorry if my explanation came across badly I wasn't trying to say that the more modern frame of reference was wrong, more that you had to be aware of what the symbol means and what it doesn't mean. If ever you look at Russian, you'll see 'B' around the place, but it's the equiv of the english sound 'V'.. [hope you get the parallel!]

I was just trying to ward off danger, but I doubt I did it very well!

Glad it appears to be sorted tho

DSP

[Sascha Franck]

Yeah, seems all fine.

[duncanparsons]

Oh Sascha - love the idea of bar munchers

DSP

[Deric]

NO WAY!!!

Well there's one thing that's for sure - two days ago I knew jack about this other than being able to count a 4/4 and play triplets, eigths, sixteenths etc over it.

Now I have a basic grasp of Simple and Compound time signatures as well as a good foundation in what notes actually are and how they relate to each other (and equally importantly - how their values DON'T relate to bars and time signatures).

Thank you, thank you, thank you! (all of you that helped and particularly the most patient ones).

A few days ago I was asking on KVR for a pattern sequencer but decided to try and figure time sigs. and note durations etc instead - after reading CompyFox's woes with song structure and music theory. I realised then that I too had to do the same and actually 'get this under my belt' in order to progress. I want to 'know' what I'm doing as much as I can in the belief that this will help strengthen my creativity as well as helping me find ways out of a musical rut when I find myself in one (which is frequently).

I cannot convey my appreciation to all of those that have helped since I awkwardly crashed into this thread. I had tried to read this stuff in books many times but, as you can see, have failed to actually grasp it. Everything is simple once you really know how they work, it's when you don't know at all they are not as simple, harder still if you 'think' you know a bit when that bit is actually wrong too!

duncanparsons - please - no apology necessary, you too were intrumental in helping me, the error was on my part and my interpretation of your well-meaning advice.

I can see that you understood that I was, incorrectly, dividing the beats into the bar. It was my subsequent interpretation of what that meant that was wrong.

My goodness it's been a long 27-or-whatever hours to get to this point! Still.... Yippee!

OK, now what's this swing thing all about then?

Good luck, and thank you for helping me!

Deric.

Ps. Bar Munchers?

[No name]

3. Triplet crotchets have a duration of 1/6 of a semibreve - per crotchet, therefore if a bar length could accommodate one semibreve you 'could' replace this one semibreve with two crotchet triplets - i.e. There would be two 'sets'(?) of triplet crotchets in one bar.

So, to clarify for my self, when dealing with triplet crochets, each crochet will amount to 1/6 of a semibreve, correct?

All triplets are are subdivisions of a greater note...Sort of like how you could break down a crochet into two quavers, and so on. Am I getting the concept correct?

I'm with you on a drink, and maybe some sort of pill too, sheesh. It's taken me nearly 5 days to learn it all.

Well, I agree on your agenda too, as i'd really like to be able to communicate as a musician. This is a vital part of it, so I couldn't let it go. I'm in no shortage of questions.

[VicDiesel]

So, to clarify for my self, when dealing with triplet crochets, each crochet will amount to 1/6 of a semibreve, correct?

1/ I refuse to learn those silly names. Names that make sense make a lot more sense to me.

2/ They're triplets; why the bloody so-and-so are you talking about 1/6? A note in a triplet has one-third the lenght of someting else. The rule is: if you have something, say a quarter note, that is normally divided into 2 something elses, here eighth notes, then now it's divided in three things that get the same name as the elses, but are just a tad shorter.

So an eight-note triplet has three notes that are notated as eighth notes (or "semi-crickets" as you Brits call them), and together make up one quarter note.

Same for three sixteenth triplets making up one eighth note.

Victor.