Ahh yes, and yet another question.

[No name]

I had another thought, and yet again, it throws me off.

Ok, regarding scales...

Lets say I play a B minor scale. The notes are as follows...

B,C#,D,E,F#,G,A,B.

When i'm using this scale, I can make a melody out of only those notes if I wish to stay in key, correct? (Let us exclude the idea of chormatic notes for a minute)

Like...I could go...D,F#,A....G,E,D...this would all be in the key of B minor, correct? And If I did wish to switch keys, i'd have to use that scales specific intervals...or set of keys I should say (helps me understand better!).

I just really want to make sure I have this all perfectly correct.

I just want to confirm that i'm getting this down correctly.

That's all

[No name]

Nevermind, it seems pretty obvious to me now. You simply must play in key.

[nuffink]

First, you have a good grasp off things and I'm a bit wary about throwing this at you but...
In modern theory you don't have to stay in key. Any scale which contains the current chord can be used as a basis for the melody.

Take the 7th chord which is built upon the first degree of your minor scale - B minor 7 (B,D,F#,A). If you stay in key you will use the 4 chord notes in the melody plus the remaining 3 of the minor scale - C#, E and G.
So far this is what you've discovered for yourself.

However

A B minor 7th can take its melody from any scale or mode which contains the chord. Typically this would be the B Dorian, B Phrygian or B Aolian modes. Yes, all of these contain out of key notes but they all work over any minor 7th (particulary the Dorian which contains no avoid notes) and all will give your melody a different feel.

There is a comprehensive list of what scales/modes work over what chords here... http://www.outsideshore.com/school/musi ... /index.htm

The key defines the chords you use
The chord defines which scale or mode you use for the melody

[Sascha Franck]

Nuffink's got quite some good points - especially regarding dorian mode.
I sometimes am using dorian (just like your natural minor but with a major 6th), even if the entire progression might suggest to use natural or harmonic minor, simply because I often don't like the sound of the b6.
So, generally, each and every mode can be used for a chord, as long as the "basic criteria" is met (you usually wouldn't use a maj7 in case a 7 is asked for by the chord symbol or playback). Of course, in a chord progression, things are starting to become limited, but even then those limitations are never to be taken literally.

[JumpingJackFlash]

The key defines the chords you use
The chord defines which scale or mode you use for the melody

While nuffink's (and Sascha's) points are certainly valid, I would personally recommend you stick within the key for now. Get a good understanding of basic diatonic tonal harmony before you start experimenting with modes and stuff. (Unless you particularly want to write jazz or folk music or something that uses the different modes).
(So, I would say key defined both the chords you use and the scale you use for the melody).

Also, regarding your original post, don't forget that when you write melodies in minor keys, it is usually a good idea to use the melodic minor (with sharpened 6th and 7th ascending and normal descending). - So, in B minor, that would be:
Ascending: B,C#,D,E,F#,G#,A#,B and descending: B,A,G,F#,E,D,C#,B.

It just generally makes melodies smoother and less awkward (and avoids the augmented 2nd that would occur between 6th and sharpened 7th in the harmonic minor).

[Sascha Franck]

Sorry to interrupt, Jack, but this is really old-fashioned. There's hardly a pop song these days utilizing different scales for ascending and descending moves.
Really, this is almost limited to classic and probably some folkloristic music.

[Toxikator]

Waiwaiwait... there's a person who DOESN'T like the sound of the b6? GTFO.

On a more serious note: Yes, you have the basic idea down pat for scales. The ascension/descension of the melodic minor is a bit archaic, and TECHNICALLY you can stay in key using any or all forms of the minor. It's not uncommon (clasically) for a melody to be in the natural minor while the harmony is built on the harmonic minor due to the strenght of the dominant chord being major. The trick there is just to make sure that you never sound the b7 and the n7 at the same time or adjacent to each other (I think Fux's rule on the matter, though it was contrapuntal and modal, was that you should wait at least one bar between the natural tone and it's musica ficta counterpart.)

[JumpingJackFlash]

There's hardly a pop song these days utilizing different scales for ascending and descending moves.

Well ok, that's true I guess. Maybe it would be best to say that, as long as you have the minor 3rd, you can experiment with 6ths and 7ths, and decide on an as-needed basis whether they sound better sharpened or not.

The trick there is just to make sure that you never sound the b7 and the n7 at the same time or adjacent to each other (I think Fux's rule on the matter, though it was contrapuntal and modal, was that you should wait at least one bar between the natural tone and it's musica ficta counterpart.)

This is known as a false relation. Musica ficta generally refers to editorial accidentals in Renaissance or Medieval music (where accidentals were not generally notated) and, although related, is not the same thing.

[Toxikator]

As noted, it was Contrapuntal and Modal (and not in an way intended for tonal works). that said, his rules are still good ones and, unless the jarring effect is desired, you want to avoid making that kind of chromatic relationship obvious.

The "harmonic" minor form, after all, employs a sharpened 7th, just like the sharpened 7th of the Aeolian mode (musica ficta). Though the modal rules are melodic/contrapuntal while the tonal rules more have to do with circular progression it's still good advice.

[Sascha Franck]

Well ok, that's true I guess. Maybe it would be best to say that, as long as you have the minor 3rd, you can experiment with 6ths and 7ths, and decide on an as-needed basis whether they sound better sharpened or not.

Yeah, sounds fine to me.
It's actually what's happening in contemporary improvisation as well.

[Toxikator]

Well ok, that's true I guess. Maybe it would be best to say that, as long as you have the minor 3rd, you can experiment with 6ths and 7ths, and decide on an as-needed basis whether they sound better sharpened or not.

Yeah, sounds fine to me.
It's actually what's happening in contemporary improvisation as well.

To some degrees. By others you have major/minor ambiguity, atonalism, functional chromaticism, etc... all of which are topics that I'd personally like to learn a lot more about. I'd say the Dorian mode is also prevalent (not to be confused with the melodic minor, as the Dorian mode has a b7 but no b6.)

[JumpingJackFlash]

As noted, it was Contrapuntal and Modal (and not in an way intended for tonal works). that said, his rules are still good ones and, unless the jarring effect is desired, you want to avoid making that kind of chromatic relationship obvious.

I agree, I was just giving it a name.

The "harmonic" minor form, after all, employs a sharpened 7th, just like the sharpened 7th of the Aeolian mode (musica ficta). Though the modal rules are melodic/contrapuntal while the tonal rules more have to do with circular progression it's still good advice.

I may have missunderstood you here, but the Aeolian mode is the same as the natural minor and does not have a sharpened 7th.

[Toxikator]

Let's get technical: the Aeolian mode is the natural minor mode on the note A.

For modes, "Musica Ficta" did, technically, mean any "accidental'd" note, but were most frequently reserved for the resolution of pieces. Fux and his ilk believed that proper melodic resolution came from a half-step motion. Therefore, for any mode within which you could NOT step up or down by a half step to the root (such as Aeolian, which had a whole step up and down from A) had to have a "musica ficta" note place beforehand. The Aeolian mode had a "musica ficta" in the final bar where the 7th was raised, and Fux's rule was to always keep it at least one or two bars away from the flatted counterpart.

The scale is the same (with the musica ficta) as the harmonic minor scale, but I do believe that's coincidental as the raised 7th in the natural minor scale is designed to augment tonal relationships (as it was believed having major dominant and diminished leading tone chords created better harmonic movement)

[nuffink]

Let's get technical

Yes let's.
The Aolian mode is the natural minor mode on the note A only in the key of C.
There is, of course, no raised 7th in the Aolian.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Let's get technical: the Aeolian mode is the natural minor mode on the note A.

For modes, "Musica Ficta" did, technically, mean any "accidental'd" note, but were most frequently reserved for the resolution of pieces. Fux and his ilk believed that proper melodic resolution came from a half-step motion. Therefore, for any mode within which you could NOT step up or down by a half step to the root (such as Aeolian, which had a whole step up and down from A) had to have a "musica ficta" note place beforehand. The Aeolian mode had a "musica ficta" in the final bar where the 7th was raised, and Fux's rule was to always keep it at least one or two bars away from the flatted counterpart.

The scale is the same (with the musica ficta) as the harmonic minor scale, but I do believe that's coincidental as the raised 7th in the natural minor scale is designed to augment tonal relationships (as it was believed having major dominant and diminished leading tone chords created better harmonic movement)

Yes, sorry, I misunderstood you before.

But let's not forget, musica ficta was not limited to cadences, it had many other uses, like keeping 5ths and octaves perfect, avoiding (vertical) tritones etc. Also, I'm not sure how helpful it is to think of early music in terms of modes, when it was generally written in hexachords (which is really what the rules of musica ficta relate to)