polyrhythms

[metrosechual]

great thread, cant wait to refine my knowledge on this subject. Always liked them when i realized they were there and i have used them on occasion....

[metrosechual]

perhaps someone could make a couple of midi files showing polytythyms and up em to stashbox... id love to try a couple as well !!!

[DAAHOOD]

polyrythm is neither a modern concept nor an academic way for rythm appreciation

just to make myself clear:

let's take a basic afro-cuban clave(4/4) :
clave (3-2) rythm is :
rythm:O--O --O- --O- O--- ("O" is a hit, "-" is silent)
it is a basic ryhtm stepped 1/16

let's take a standart cowbell rythm (afro-cuban(4/4) :
rythm :O- O- O- Oo ("O" is a big hit, "o" is a small hit)

both rythms stand quite similar (4/4) but it's obvious that this last rythm is stepped 1/8 and can be assimilated as a "basic" rythm, the clave rythm wich melt with the cowbell's rythm is then polyrythmic compared to the first one as we can considered it to be stepped 1/16 based (twice more rythmic "divisions")

in another way (and quite uneasy to handle ) is cumulating at the same time a simple straignt "binary" 4/4 pattern and an other one deeply "ternary" 12/8 : timing is equal, but rythm division is tipically not similar but it really grooves

as a demonstration to all of my purpose, a very good example is the cuban folk rumba (voice and percussions only)
it's deeply traditional but it has a very strict and complex rythm approach that makes this style so singular

[DAAHOOD]

i just forgot to give a link for you to listen to rumba

http://www.amazon.com/Cuba-Am-Time-Vari ... B000005AHS
3 - La Voz Del Congo - Clave Y Guaguanco



the clave is rumba trad clave 3-2 and it differs slightly from the common clave.it's
o--o ---o --o- o--- ; whereas usual clave is :
o--o --o- --o- o---

it's a slow tune of rhumba (4/4) basically straight and binary but...notice the "ternarization" in the background...i love that!!

[herodotus]

Kashmir.

Ok, you're probably talking about that tadada guitar rhythm. Right, that's 3/4, but the quarter note is the same as of the drum, so it's not what's commonly called "3 against 4". Meaning: not "3 in the time of 4".

OK, lets get specific here.

'Polyrhythm' is a word that gets bandied about quite roughly due to the absence of any commonly accepted, theoretically rigorous definition, so I am going to use more pretty pictures. Pictures, at least, are concrete,



This is the Polyrhythm in the song Kashmir.

We can see that it conforms quite plainly to the definition advanced previously:

x units with a metrical value of y superimposed over y units with a metrical value of x, where x and y are natural numbers.
As does this:



and this:



Now while each of these examples conforms to this principle, only the last example conforms to the more specific rule:

3 in the time of 4

Personally, I think that they all could be called 'polyrhythms' without doing language any violence. And this is because they all conform to the general definition:

x units with a metrical value of y superimposed over y units with a metrical value of x, where x and y are natural numbers.

Or, in pictorial analogy:



What particular things you use as units is an entirely separate issue, and in fact quite an extensive one.

[DAAHOOD]

finally , i foud this video on you yube
still rumba (cuban)

pay attention to the clave because you can't figure the polyryhm if you don't get clear the clave beat; 3-2 as mentionned before or 2-3 which is the same but reversed (meas 1-2 becomes mes 2-1)

[herodotus]

Thanks for that totally wonderful link!

I have some c.d.s to buy!

[DAAHOOD]

here's a better one for figuring it out




Merry christmas !!!

[dreamkeeper]

[herodotus]

[DAAHOOD]

great track by king krimson
very rough and sweet at the end

the jazz saxophonist steve coleman (a master in rythm complexity) has made a very interesting album with a folk rumba band called "afro-cuba de Matanzas" which combines both modern and traditional approches of poyrythms.

Steve Coleman is known to experiment polyrythms in various csituation with different bands (huge discography)
musicians interested by polyrythms have to give a hear to what this guy does
he is definitely a milestone in the polyrythmic music creation nowadays

[VicDiesel]

This is the Polyrhythm in the song Kashmir.

Ok, I have no real problem with you calling that a poly-rhythm. There are two kinds of polyrhythm, and to me this is the second kind. I guess to you it's the primary kind. Fine.

We can see that it conforms quite plainly to the definition advanced previously:

x units with a metrical value of y superimposed over y units with a metrical value of x, where x and y are natural numbers.

Ok, now I have a problem.

I would give as a definition of a poly-rhythm "x equally long notes in the time of y equally (but diffrently) long notes, where x is not y".

Clearly that does not fall under your definition. So how do you call that?

Victor.

[DAAHOOD]

this is too much concept to me
in a same mes, 4 notes is not the same rythm as 8 half ,yet they are both 4/4; this is strict basic polyrythm, everything beyond that is a propension toward concept and complexity (which doesn't mean bad or complicated obviously) that leads to composition only

music "IS" polyrythms (the contrary is monorythmic as a metronome)

Steve Reich is known as a minimalist composer and many of his pieces are made of small fragment of musical phrases played by single instrument (looped until...death) but the combination of all instruments gives a very strong feeling of a global polyrythm spread through the score

[DAAHOOD]

test-experience

in your sequencer(if you own one,otherwise forget it, sorry)
draw a simple pattern (4/4) kik, snare, hihat as
k o--- ---- o--- ----
s ---- o--- ---- o---
h o-o- o-o- o-o- o-o-

can't be simpler, set the tempo to 120

draw the same rythm with different instruments (rythmic)
you know have 2 similar rythm
drag one and extend it to 6 beats (if your seq has an extented function, you know have two same rythm but at different tempo's !!
what do you hear ?(you can play with it). Is it polyrythm?

an aother idea :

compile instrument hits(percussion but no drumset) as:
0---0---0---0---0---0---0---0--- ... group of 4
0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0-- ... group of 3
0----0----0----0----0----0----0-- ...group of 5
00--00-00--00-00--00-00--00-00-- ... group of 7 (00-- + 00-)
etc etc
create a single "kik ans snare" pattern (4/4)
k 0--- ---- 0--- ----
s ---- o--- ---- o---

combine the hits structure with yuor drums pattern

what do you hear know?
a simple beat structure and at the same something very complex moving around the main drums pattern in the foreground

[VicDiesel]

compile instrument hits(percussion but no drumset) as:
0---0---0---0---0---0---0---0--- ... group of 4
0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0-- ... group of 3
0----0----0----0----0----0----0-- ...group of 5
00--00-00--00-00--00-00--00-00-- ... group of 7 (00-- + 00-)
etc etc

But all these rhythms are based on the same 1/16th or whatever smallest beat, right? So it's really putting different accents on an underlying stream of basic beats.

Try:

Code: Select all

o         o         o          o         o
1        2         3          4          1

o             o            o             o
1            2            3              1

where the two voices hit the "1" at the same time.

Listen for instance to that Ponty example I posted on the previous page.

Victor.