So why DO people get so emotional about music theory topics?

[Toxikator]

it's an inside joke.

[Barf]

Thanx a lot for getting me emotional again guys, merry christmas!

[shinken]

Theory is an emotional thing because some people feel intimidated, threatened, or validated by it, and it's something that not everyone has the brain power to learn

Your analysis is all wrong for the following reasons:

Firstly, there's the obvious (well it should be obvious if you have the brainpower) fallacy: that if I have studied and learned something by rote and you have not, then it follows that your brain is inferior to mine.

Secondly, you imply that there is one overarching theory of music, and that "some people" know this all-encompassing music theory, when in fact the most knowledgable theorists don't even know a fraction of all the theories there are in music. Unless you're saying that you either know the all-encompassing theory of all music yourself.

Thirdly, you imply that everyone regards this mythical all-encompassing theory of music as desirable knowledge for their personal edification. The reality is that the people who have any interest in anyone else's music theory either have learned that theory or else are learning it.

Fourthly, you state that the motivation for criticising any theory-wanker's absurd, outmoded, fanatical, fascist prejudices can only by a sense of inferiority. Think about this and what it says for why YOU YOURSELF decided at some point to learn a theory. Are you upset that others now don't regard you as talented, because you claim to have studied this or that?? What did you expect? That others should now regard you as somehow elevated, because everyone is the same and you think they share the same insecurities as you?

OK, I have a question for you. According to your own theory quoted above, are you one of those who lacks the brainpower to learn "music theory", or do you also happen to know my own theory of music?

You are a devotee, nothing more. Learning classical music theory doesn't make you a beacon of wisdom and civilisation (maybe it would if you moved to Slough LOL), and in the absence of any link to your music you're definitely a pure theorist and a non-musician.

[nuffink]

Theory is an emotional thing because some people feel intimidated, threatened, or validated by it, and it's something that not everyone has the brain power to learn

Your analysis is all wrong for the following reasons:

Firstly, there's the obvious (well it should be obvious if you have the brainpower) fallacy: that if I have studied and learned something by rote and you have not, then it follows that your brain is inferior to mine.

Secondly, you imply that there is one overarching theory of music, and that "some people" know this all-encompassing music theory, when in fact the most knowledgable theorists don't even know a fraction of all the theories there are in music. Unless you're saying that you either know the all-encompassing theory of all music yourself.

Thirdly, you imply that everyone regards this mythical all-encompassing theory of music as desirable knowledge for their personal edification. The reality is that the people who have any interest in anyone else's music theory either have learned that theory or else are learning it.

Fourthly, you state that the motivation for criticising any theory-wanker's absurd, outmoded, fanatical, fascist prejudices can only by a sense of inferiority. Think about this and what it says for why YOU YOURSELF decided at some point to learn a theory. Are you upset that others now don't regard you as talented, because you claim to have studied this or that?? What did you expect? That others should now regard you as somehow elevated, because everyone is the same and you think they share the same insecurities as you?

OK, I have a question for you. According to your own theory quoted above, are you one of those who lacks the brainpower to learn "music theory", or do you also happen to know my own theory of music?

You are a devotee, nothing more. Learning classical music theory doesn't make you a beacon of wisdom and civilisation (maybe it would if you moved to Slough LOL), and in the absence of any link to your music you're definitely a pure theorist and a non-musician.

So why do you get so emotional shinken?

I mean I've never heard of you before a couple of angry rants at me in t'other thread. Now this.
Care to explain why it matters to you so much? I'll show you my credentials if you do.

[laputa_sync]

[eduardo_b]

Your analysis is all wrong for the following reasons:

I don't know that this answers why people get so emotional about music theory, but it does prove that they do.

[Lunatique]

I think you just did repeat some of the arguments for music theory: you say people who don't learn music theory are stupid and lazy and then people wonder why people who didnt learn (need?) music theory get emotional over this...

You can interpret it that way if you want, but it's not that simple. See, if someone is totally content making genres of music that doesn't require advanced theory (or even basic theory), and at no point in the rest of his life would he want to expand beyond his comfort zone, then who's to say that's "wrong" or "lazy"? Some people can make the same kind of stuff for an entire lifetime, and actually get famous/successful doing it. If that makes them happy, then who are we to say the person's "lazy" or "stupid"?

For me personally, I wanted to expand my horizons and tackle all genres of music--from basic to advanced, so I have no choice BUT to get crackin' and learn the necessary theory in order to compose/arrange/perform in the genres that require more out of me than I'm comfortable with at the moment. If I could be content just making simple three-chord punk rock in the style of The Ramones, then I don't see anything wrong with that either.

The only time when I see something "lazy" is when someone wants to expand, but refuses to pay his dues by putting in the hard work and learn, and then proceeds to try to fake styles and genres that is above his current level of comfort (and it really shows). When others tell him that it shows, he refuses to take the time to learn and improve and attribute his limitations to "his style." I see that a lot in the art world, and it exists in other creative arenas too.

As far as being "stupid" goes, I can't walk in anyone else's shoes, so I don't know their mental limitations. There are certainly some concepts in music theory that I struggle with, and I'm sure it's probably simple stuff for those with a brilliant mind. At the same time, there are probably stuff that comes easy to me, but is very hard for others, even after trying very hard. We all have different limitations and are talented in different areas. If someone is truly "stupid," then either he knows it deep down inside, or those around him in his life would know it--it won't be something to debate about.

[shinken]

Nuffink: It's nothing personal (just kidding about Slough) but I'm sorry there's no subtlety at all in your allegations of ignorance, bliss and whatnot, and there has to be a clear signal that modernism has been contextualised and devolved. Music can very easily be abused as a technique for mass hypnosis and control, and bizarrely that's what's happening on KVR with these types of threads. As far as I'm concerned anyone has the right to throw together any piece of crap and put it on tape and call themselves a musician (my opinion about someone else's work is nothing special), and it's just plain psychological terrorism to subvert their individuality using techniques of coercion. Frankly, it's your own severely conditioned psyche, that causes you and others like you to attach notions of value to received doctrine. When you try to extend this conditioning to others, you're doing it with the intention of elevating yourself above them like your parents, teachers and siblings did to you. This is precisely what pop music was designed for: to reinforce emotional responses to OLD formulae, so that the OLD guard would pull our strings like puppets.

If someone wants to research some theory and memorise or acquire some kind of skill whether it's playing the scales on piano or baking a cake, that's up to them as individuals. But it's not OK to participate in the mass-brainwashing that takes place, seemingly to ensure that every palate revolts at a cake that contains vanilla rather than raspberry, just to climb a hierarchy that depends on a dominion of weak minds (i.e. mostly kids).

[shinken]

What makes classical music theory so bloody special that if you don't know ALL of it then you probably have mental limitations? Which languages do any of you idiots know (don't you know that if you can't read Farsi you're an idiot)?

[nuffink]

Nuffink: It's nothing personal (just kidding about Slough) but I'm sorry there's no subtlety at all in your allegations of ignorance, bliss and whatnot, and there has to be a clear signal that modernism has been contextualised and devolved. Music can very easily be abused as a technique for mass hypnosis and control, and bizarrely that's what's happening on KVR with these types of threads. As far as I'm concerned anyone has the right to throw together any piece of crap and put it on tape and call themselves a musician (my opinion about someone else's work is nothing special), and it's just plain psychological terrorism to subvert their individuality using techniques of coercion. Frankly, it's your own severely conditioned psyche, that causes you and others like you to attach notions of value to received doctrine. When you try to extend this conditioning to others, you're doing it with the intention of elevating yourself above them like your parents, teachers and siblings did to you. This is precisely what pop music was designed for: to reinforce emotional responses to OLD formulae, so that the OLD guard would pull our strings like puppets.

If someone wants to research some theory and memorise or acquire some kind of skill whether it's playing the scales on piano or baking a cake, that's up to them as individuals. But it's not OK to participate in the mass-brainwashing that takes place, seemingly to ensure that every palate revolts at a cake that contains vanilla rather than raspberry, just to climb a hierarchy that depends on a dominion of weak minds (i.e. mostly kids).

It was a rhetorical question.

[shinken]

Overcome your own limitations before you try to help people with their "limitations" as you see them. It's obvious by now that you have no credentials to disclose. So get some and then let's talk music theory.

[nuffink]

Overcome your own limitations before you try to help people with their "limitations" as you see them. It's obvious by now that you have no credentials to disclose. So get some and then let's talk music theory.

I talk music theory a fair bit here. Feel free to join in if you've got anything to contribute.

[laputa_sync]

everyone...

[Barf]

Here's a poll suggestion:
-making music without learning music theory is impossible
-music made without knowing music theory is 'fake' music
-people who dont know music theory are lazy and have no brain
-music theory is for people who have trouble with emotions in general
-music theory people are too lazy to find thing out for themselves, they'd rather be told whats wrong and right by someone else
-music theory people are in general arrogant people who like to boss around
-music theory people are jealous of people who dont need it, afterall they invested a huge amount of time and sometimes money in learning it (forgetting that learning to play without theory also takes a lot time and effort)
-a little knowledge of theory can be very helpfull but it's not strictly neccessary

[Topiness]

Here's a poll suggestion:
-making music without learning music theory is impossible
-music made without knowing music theory is 'fake' music
-people who dont know music theory are lazy and have no brain
-music theory is for people who have trouble with emotions in general
-music theory people are too lazy to find thing out for themselves, they'd rather be told whats wrong and right by someone else
-music theory people are in general arrogant people who like to boss around
-music theory people are jealous of people who dont need it, afterall they invested a huge amount of time and sometimes money in learning it (forgetting that learning to play without theory also takes a lot time and effort)
-a little knowledge of theory can be very helpfull but it's not strictly neccessary

ADD:

- some classical composers were paedophiles / nazis / murderers, THEREFORE if you don't know any music theory, you're definitely not a murderous nazi paedophile.

(This is called the retards-aren't-killer-nonces-fallacy)