Any good alternative scales for harmony?

[nuffink]

So, I was wondering if anyone else had had a go at say, coming up with a nice 16-tone scale that still allowed concordant harmony. If not, maybe i'll have a go...

Lots. 19TET and 31TET are the best known according to wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
and Harry Partsch came up with a 43 note scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Part ... tone_scale *

The biggest problem with larger TETs is fitting them to a human scale. An octave in 12TET is an uncomfortable spread for many people. Make the keys any smaller and it's impossible to play for geezers with meaty fingers.
The same applies to the holes in woodwinds and strings/frets etc.

Computers make it possible but 12TET instruments make it difficult.

*edit: I see you found that one

[semiquaver]

Also interesting are older non-equally-tempered tunings (like Valotti, Werkmeister etc etc). In most 18th c. tunings each key sounds distincltly different - in some certain chords are sweeter or less sweet. So Bach-like sequences around the circle of 5ths were much less boring than they are now - as they were getting less tense or more tense depending on which way they were moving.

[talynidm]

I've always found it pretty good fun playing with alternative/world tunings with microtonal synths... but often more for solo or melodic lines. Apart from maybe the gamelan tunings, i've generally found it tough to make nice chords with them.

Here is a really interesting paper. The guy claims that the scale in which you play should fit the overtones of your instrument. He goes on to develop synthesized instruments with inharmonious overtones, and scales to go with it.

Look for sound examples at the bottom of the page. The Klingon song with a division of 60 notes per octave is pretty cool.

Victor.

I'd just like to say thanks for the link, it was an enjoyable read last night, and quite frankly one of the most interesting things I've ever read on KVR.

The nice thing aside from being able to get a general idea of what timbres will go along with certain, non tradidional divisions of tone, is something that can be very usefull with some of the software I own, and it will speed up some trial and error methods I have employed, hopefully.

Great read.

[talynidm]

So, I was wondering if anyone else had had a go at say, coming up with a nice 16-tone scale that still allowed concordant harmony. If not, maybe i'll have a go...

Lots. 19TET and 31TET are the best known according to wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
and Harry Partsch came up with a 43 note scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Part ... tone_scale *

The biggest problem with larger TETs is fitting them to a human scale. An octave in 12TET is an uncomfortable spread for many people. Make the keys any smaller and it's impossible to play for geezers with meaty fingers.
The same applies to the holes in woodwinds and strings/frets etc.

Computers make it possible but 12TET instruments make it difficult.

*edit: I see you found that one

Yeah I spent along time actually memorizing alot of different scales on guitar, but unless I can bend every not perfectly, there is no way, I can use that intsrument to do what software makes possible with tuning.

I used to make some of my own scales, and derive chords from them. It sounds backwards, but it's just how I "SEE" things, it's the same thing really, but it's just what I see in my head, probably due to memorizing scales visually.

Any way, some experiments have sounded great, and others have had bad results.

The link victor supplied is like I said, one of the most interesting things I've read on KVR, and it gives me some new insight to why some micro tunings actually do sound better with different timbres.

Nice new tool.

[talynidm]

I've been poking around on absynth with different timbres, basic non filtered wave forms, and it is interesting how some chords sound "in tune" with different timbres. This is something I know intuitively, but the reasons behind it are interesting.

Like I said I learned most of my music theory on guitar and then went to the keyboard, so I was always obessed with modes, and hovering around the starting or ending points, and adding minimal chord structure, to bring out the sound. And because there wasn't much difference in timber, I never really gave it much thought.

After poking around absynth with Pelog+Slendro and using a basic sine wave, vs. some user defined waves, and some factory waves, it was interesting that the same chord intervals actually did sound more in tune with different timbers. I did try some minor FM modulation and once again some sounded good, and others sounded like I just banged my head against a piano.

I'm not certain this is what the original poster was talking about, but it's really something that could make sound design+chord structure easier to plan out.

[Toxikator]

The reason is the nature of the harmonics and how they're tuned.

Actually, the basic idea of hermode tuning can be applied in more scalar methods, check out http://www.lucytune.com for another example of changing temperments based on the chords in play.

[talynidm]

The reason is the nature of the harmonics and how they're tuned.

Actually, the basic idea of hermode tuning can be applied in more scalar methods, check out http://www.lucytune.com for another example of changing temperments based on the chords in play.

Ok at first I thought it was a bit odd, but this is an intrinsic problem with fretted instruments.

1) The Larger note as he calls it; This is a ratio of 2 to the 2*pi root of 2, or in BASIC computer terms 2^(1/(2*pi)), which equals a ratio of 1.116633 or 190.9858 cents, approximately 1.91 frets on a conventional guitar.

That's what I meant by having to bend every note perfectly, which I can't do. So I'm thankfull for software.

Either that or buy one of these:

http://www.lucytune.com/guitars_and_frets/frets.html

Or start playing non fretted stringed instruments, which sorta doesn't help with the whole guitar issue....

It's an interesting idea though, I'm guessing it's out of my current price range though.

[VicDiesel]

The biggest problem with larger TETs is fitting them to a human scale. An octave in 12TET is an uncomfortable spread for many people. Make the keys any smaller and it's impossible to play for geezers with meaty fingers.

Well, you have to redesign your keyboard.



Victor.

[VicDiesel]

The nice thing aside from being able to get a general idea of what timbres will go along with certain, non tradidional divisions of tone, is something that can be very usefull with some of the software I own, and it will speed up some trial and error methods I have employed, hopefully.

Please post the results.

That article made a lot of sense to me. It explained why weird scales sound unnecessarily unpleasant with usual instruments, and the sound examples were surprisingly good to listen to.

Victor.

[tee boy]

I found this great one a few months ago, from the B section of Rachmaninov's Op23 No5 prelude. I forget what they call it, but basically its a mode (the fifth I think) of the harmonic minor scale. I think they called it the 'harmonic major inverse'. Its like, rather than modulate to the dominant for the B section, he changes mode instead!

Anyway, it has this great sound, kind of like eastern and mysterious. Here is the passage in question:

http://download.yousendit.com/D7FC116628716A81

TB

[Topiness]

I found this great one a few months ago, from the B section of Rachmaninov's Op23 No5 prelude. I forget what they call it, but basically its a mode (the fifth I think) of the harmonic minor scale. I think they called it the 'harmonic major inverse'. Its like, rather than modulate to the dominant for the B section, he changes mode instead!

Anyway, it has this great sound, kind of like eastern and mysterious. Here is the passage in question:

http://download.yousendit.com/D7FC116628716A81

TB

it's nice... a bit like spanish/flamenco scales, isn't it? (Phrygian?)

[tee boy]

Kind of. Its a mode of the Harmonic Minor. Fifth I believe, but I forget now. I analysed this B section a few months back, will try to find the papers.

BB