The ignorance is bliss fallacy

[Toxikator]

As a tiny teeny example - in many places, you will read that the 7th degree of the scale 'wants to resolve to the tonic'.

I know that for my own 'natural' style, and the way i use chords, that's not true. On the other hand, if i'm trying to imitate more traditional styles, it's a useful thing to bear in mind.

True, but in many ways saying "the leading tone/subtonic wants to resolve to the tonic" is like saying "the human heart is designed to pump blood". It's not to be taken as an authoritative explanation, it's a way of explaining it so that it makes sense in context. But is not a be-all and end-all.

A more accurate explanation would be "in melody and functional harmony, the leading tone/subtonic scale degree creates a dissonance which, regarding its proximity to the tonic of the scale, is most frequently resolved by motion upwards to the tonic." Far more accurate but also far less useful when learning about circle progressions for the first time.

Why 'forward', though? Music doesn't move develop just along a single line, with progression in one direction and regression in another. Music is forever moving out in every direction, branching, recombining...

the risk with theory is that you end up learning something that contradicts your instinct - and until you have the experience to say 'no, that's not for me', you can waste a lot of time.

once you have got to the point when you do have that experience, you've got nothing to lose by diving right in.

Possibly, or you may instead turn to a theoretical analysis that EXPLAINS, rather than doesn't explain, your goals.

There is no such thing as "contradiction" in theory. Only mutually exclusive explanations of separate functions for the same thing in assorted contexts. If you read that chord X "can only be used this way" you're reading from the wrong source. If you read that chord X "is typically (or always) used this way in this context/style" you've found a better source.

[OverDose]

I don't think that it's actually possible to do music without theory, even if you don't know the note's name, or scales or whatever, we seemed to be programmed to understand music, and instictively know when something is just "wrong" and we're certainly able to understand and connect with sound on a deep emotional level regardless of our theoretical knowledge, so it's safe to assume that you can make music without reading a single book and without teachers and all that, it'll take you some time, but with enough practice you'll eventually learn your way around, and you'll make "new findings" and "happy accidents" along the way, but you'll find out that all that stuff has been well documented for a couple of centuries, and it took you 2 years to learn something that you could have learn in a couple of months by reading and practicing.

But a lot of established theories of music contradict each other, or at least have different approaches. if you don't spend plenty of time saying 'sod theory' and having a go on your own, how are you going to know which ones your own musical soul is in tune with?

As a tiny teeny example - in many places, you will read that the 7th degree of the scale 'wants to resolve to the tonic'.

I know that for my own 'natural' style, and the way i use chords, that's not true. On the other hand, if i'm trying to imitate more traditional styles, it's a useful thing to bear in mind.

yeah, i don't think that theory is perfect in it's current state, and we should not believe that it is, it does a great job but it can get weird from time to time, but i do think that you need to understand it to make music work the way you like, the theoretic knowledge will help you find your natural style, it's not paint by numbers, you have a lot of flexibility as to how you want proceed with it, and you can of course push theory aside for a moment and experiment, try something different, theory helps you reach only so far, after that you're own your own, and that's what i mean when i say that we should push forward, i'm not saying that we should all push in the same direction, but rather that we should try to take music further, in whatever way you like, create new kind of music, regardless of how it might conflict with established theory.

We must understand music, and value the legacy of great musicians, build on top of it, and permanently push forward, taking sound where it has never been before and not rediscovering chord progressions.

Why 'forward', though? Music doesn't move develop just along a single line, with progression in one direction and regression in another. Music is forever moving out in every direction, branching, recombining...

the risk with theory is that you end up learning something that contradicts your instinct - and until you have the experience to say 'no, that's not for me', you can waste a lot of time.

once you have got to the point when you do have that experience, you've got nothing to lose by diving right in.

yeah, that's what i meant, maybe "expand" would have been a better expression than "push forward", my english is somewhat limited, so i understand if it causes me to be missinterpreted, i agree with you in most things, except in theory being a risk, but i think that it could be in some specific cases, i wouldn't know, learning theory works for me, i decided to make music just six months ago, i dropped out of film making to make music instead, i discovered somewhat late in my life that music was what i was all about, music moves me like nothing else, but comming from a film making background i'm used to read, study, analize and try to deconstruct things, find out why they work the way they do, if somebody else already figured something out then i see no need to try to discover it again by myself, i don't believe that theory will dictate what i do, i see knowledge as a tool, and not like walls around my creativity, it will just help me get there faster, i have no time to waste, i feel the urge to get the music out of my head, and a logically structured and documented approach seems to be what works for me.

i'm not by any means saying that this strategy should be universal and that any other ways of approaching your musical experience are worthless, or that you should see music theory as a biblical, unquestionable fact, i'm just describing the way things work for me, i'm a learning junkie, i love the feeling of understanding something new, and i've come to be obssesed about the efficiency of my efforts, i feel old, i feel time running out, i'll be married soon, i can't fool around, i'm placing my bet on my ability to create music, my future life as i see it, depends entirely on my dedication and the conviction that i have something to say musically speaking, the music is already inside, i just need to help it get out, i don't need theory to tell me what to do, i need it to help me find out how to do what i want to do.

[Topiness]

There is no such thing as "contradiction" in theory. Only mutually exclusive explanations of separate functions for the same thing in assorted contexts.

Yes, that would have been a better way to put it. Contrary to what you might think from my incessant contributions to this rather silly thread, I can sometimes be a lazy typist...

If you read that chord X "can only be used this way" you're reading from the wrong source.

I think when you're looking at 'theory 101' type things, there are more sources that read like that than ones that keep the context intact. If you disagree, then you've been luckier (or better guided) than me in the material you've found.

I think the internet can only help with this situation, as it's much easier to search broadly across different avenues of theory.

Possibly, or you may instead turn to a theoretical analysis that EXPLAINS, rather than doesn't explain, your goals.

As long as there is one, and that the vocabulary to describe your goals is well established.

A bit of personal perspective to explain my wariness:

When I was trying to make the music I liked in the early 90's, much of it based around 'big' chords (as in, like minor 9th or major 7/9), i would look at the books on my school or local library shelves. Now, I'm generally pretty good at researching a topic for whatever reason... but there were only books that dealt with anything beyond a triad as a 'disssonance that needs resolving', worded in exactly the prescriptive, context-free way you said would be typical of a 'wrong source'. And for what i was trying to do, it really was wrong.

fortunately I had my ears and plenty of time to play around, and I sat and played along with the pieces i liked and eventually worked out the chords and progressions.

and having learned what they were and learned the chord names, I was then in a much better position to go back to the theory books and look up a bit about jazz harmony, which was interesting - I learned that 'non-functional harmony' described some of the things i was trying to do. But because I was not trying to make jazz, I didn't initially know to look at jazz harmony.

So, in the journey from complete ignorance, I had to go through a stage where i said to myself, '(setablished) music theory is useless'. And during that stage, I made some music that was both decent in my own judgement, and that even I got paid for.

Now, after a long break from music making, I'm pretty excited about learning a bit of theory. You won't see me endorse the statement that 'theory is useless'. But maybe you can see from my account above why I would agree that sometimes it can be a legitimate attitude.

If you think i've just been unlucky, then sure, you're probably right. But I still wonder if you don't under-estimate how hard it might be for the beginner to find relevant and interesting information about the particular style of music they want to make.

[Topiness]

i decided to make music just six months ago, i dropped out of film making to make music instead, i discovered somewhat late in my life that music was what i was all about, music moves me like nothing else, but comming from a film making background i'm used to read, study, analize and try to deconstruct things, find out why they work the way they do, if somebody else already figured something out then i see no need to try to discover it again by myself, i don't believe that theory will dictate what i do, i see knowledge as a tool, and not like walls around my creativity, it will just help me get there faster, i have no time to waste, i feel the urge to get the music out of my head, and a logically structured and documented approach seems to be what works for me.

...

i feel old, i feel time running out, i'll be married soon, i can't fool around, i'm placing my bet on my ability to create music, my future life as i see it, depends entirely on my dedication and the conviction that i have something to say musically speaking, the music is already inside, i just need to help it get out, i don't need theory to tell me what to do, i need it to help me find out how to do what i want to do.

It sounds like we have a lot in common. I've just decided to ditch a kind of 'safe' career (programming/IT) to pursue music more. And I feel old too (I'm 27... is it old? ).

So congratulations on your choice... I'm a big believer in the maxim 'if you think you can do it, you're right', so I'm sure you'll have every success. The company I just quit made millions of dollars a year providing absolutely f**k ALL to its clients, just with the right marketing. Got to be much easier to do with a product your heart's really in.

[yemski]

your first line in reply to me:

Firstly, quantumn physics in the 1850's? What the f**k are on about there mate?

Just not a good first impression, that's all.

O.K, I guess I should apologise for that one. And also commend you for not pointing out the glaring typo. It should have been "What the f**k are you on about there mate?". The ommission of the "you" gave it a Borat like quality which was unintended.

I think it's down to cultural differences though.
Judging from your use of language and the cultural references in your posts I'm guessing that you're American. In my experience, on an interpersonal level Americans tend to be more polite than most English people. I do'nt know why this is, maybe it's the greater geographical mobility, or the prevalence of handguns, but generally they are a lot less rude than us Brits.

I was also bought up in East and North London, which are perhaps some of the rudest parts of the country.
For me, "What the f**k are you on about mate", is almost a form of friendly salutation. This has been a problem for me when working with American musicians, who can easily take umbrage at the sort of casual insults my friends and I throw around the studio. When we call some one "a silly f**ker", they often don't seem to realise for us this really means nothing. You guys also seem to really take exception to being called a c**t, when for us it means that you've finally been accepted as one of the lads.

There was one was occasion when I when working with an awesome bass player from L.A, who I called a "dozy c**t", over something stupid ,(I can't even remember what), this almost ended with the destruction of a very expensive Protools rig. There was almost blood on the carpet. If it were'nt for the mediation of his English girlfriend, who explained that I was only joking around, things could have got very nasty indeed. On the other hand you guys seem perfectly oblivious to being called motherf**ker, which when you think about it is far worse, given the obvious implications of the term.

How off topic was that? Anyway theory rocks, etc.

[tee boy]

Ok, I havent read this thread in its entity, so Im not quite sure where you're up to (have the flame wars began yet, or am I in time? ).

Im with Nuffink on this one. Knowledge is what makes the 'normal' muso tick. There are occassional prodigies who can just break every rule in the book and totally redefine music... but they are few and far between. The vast majority of people will have to learn what has come before them and try to interpret that to fit their own tastes. The best we can hope for is to make a unique and interesting sound for ourselves.

But this 'Im not learning theory because it will stiffle my creativity' bullshit is just that... bullshit!

Ofcourse, dont abuse the knowledge! Just because you have a good knowledge of the music from yesteryear doesnt mean you cant sometimes (or all the time if you like) do something mad. Sometimes the happy accident is a valuable thing!

I tend to think like this...

Study as a theorist. Compose as an artist.

TB

[yemski]

I tend to think like this...

Study as a theorist. Compose as an artist.

TB

Could'nt agree more. Too many of the world's great composers have studied theory for anyone to dismiss it is as a pointless excersise. After all Stravinsky used his extensive musical education, to blow established conventions of orchestration and form out of the water back in 1913 with the "Rite Of Spring". His work sounds avant garde even today. Such a work could'nt have been written by someone with no knowledge of what they were doing. At the same time I doubt theoretical considerations were paramount in his mind when he wrote it. He just did what felt right.

[Topiness]

In my experience, on an interpersonal level Americans tend to be more polite than most English people. I do'nt know why this is, maybe it's the greater geographical mobility, or the prevalence of handguns...

For me, "What the f**k are you on about mate", is almost a form of friendly salutation.

Next time we speak I'll expect nothing less, then. Maybe one day I can even get to the status of 'c**t'!

you guys seem perfectly oblivious to being called motherf**ker, which when you think about it is far worse, given the obvious implications of the term.

Don't knock it till you've tried it...

[Amberience]

In my experience, on an interpersonal level Americans tend to be more polite than most English people. I do'nt know why this is, maybe it's the greater geographical mobility, or the prevalence of handguns...

On an interpersonal level, my experience is that all Americans are either gay, fat, or blonde.

[Toxikator]

Texas? Holy dog shit, only steers and queers come from Texas! And you don't much look like a steer to me, so I guess that kind of narrows it down...

[Hink]

Texas? Holy dog shit, only steers and queers come from Texas! And you don't much look like a steer to me, so I guess that kind of narrows it down...

my son was born in texas how dare you make fun of texas

[Toxikator]

lol what a good movie

[yemski]

On an interpersonal level, my experience is that all Americans are either gay, fat, or blonde.

Well you should stop hanging out at the,Austin Texas, Gay and Lesbian Crochet circle. They think your Cross stitch sucks arse anyway.

[Amberience]

On an interpersonal level, my experience is that all Americans are either gay, fat, or blonde.

Well you should stop hanging out at the,Austin Texas, Gay and Lesbian Crochet circle. They think your Cross stitch sucks arse anyway.

Yeah but I p0wn them at trivial pursuit.

[yemski]

Unless it refers to the work of Keanu Reeves (is he or is'nt he?), sword and sandle movies with a gay subtext, or anything on the E Channel, gays are notoriously bad at trivial pursuit.

I bet all of them can bench press at least twice what you can though, and that's just the lesbians.