I ask a lot of questions.
I suppose it's for the best though!Keyboard Technique.
-
- KVRAF
- 1891 posts since 9 Oct, 2004 from Columbus,Ohio
I actually have a small problem with how I play...sometimes I fumble over some keys, and end up hitting the wrong key altogether. How did you guys get over it? Just practicing more, or is there any good methods you used? Right now i'm actually playing different things and not looking down on a single note, just playing with my eyes close, getting a better feel for the keys. I've mostly been tryna do chord progressions, feeling out the keys instead of looking down. I can play, but i'd much rather like to be able to play fast and have better accuracy/timing. Any suggestions?
I ask a lot of questions. I suppose it's for the best though!
I ask a lot of questions.
I suppose it's for the best though!"You are going to let the fear of poverty govern your life and your reward will be that you will eat, but you will not live."
-
- KVRAF
- 3971 posts since 19 Apr, 2005 from Brissie
You're completely self-taught? There's nothing practise won't help...
...but one thing I would suggest is to make sure your hands look like crabs when you're playing, rather than being flat
...but one thing I would suggest is to make sure your hands look like crabs when you're playing, rather than being flat
I've joined Lurkers Anonymous.
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1891 posts since 9 Oct, 2004 from Columbus,Ohio
That has been a big problem for me...I tried to learn different techniques involving my hands, but I was in the process of moving so I just ended up forgetting about it. That is until i've finally learned more structure in learning about theory, and now that i'm on my way to mastering the basics in theory, i'd love to get the technique part down too. Yes I am totally self taught, 10 years of noodlings which is a shame as I could have been so far by now if I buckled down and learned. I admit though that I haven't hit the keyboard in years as much as I should, hell, there was actually almost a few years where I wasn't doing any thing at all. I was the type of person who thought theory would place boundaries on me, but it turned out to be incredibly helpful and inspiring too, but to each their own! 
"You are going to let the fear of poverty govern your life and your reward will be that you will eat, but you will not live."
-
- KVRist
- 126 posts since 16 Apr, 2004 from Adelaide, South Australia
To play fast, start by playing slowly and work on accuracy before speed. It may sound obvious, but the old 'walk before you can run' will develop your keyboard technique better than anything else. There are no shortcuts here - it's all about muscle memory.
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1891 posts since 9 Oct, 2004 from Columbus,Ohio
Sounds logical to me, thanks! It actually makes a ton of sense because I think I started out running!
"You are going to let the fear of poverty govern your life and your reward will be that you will eat, but you will not live."
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1891 posts since 9 Oct, 2004 from Columbus,Ohio
I have a particular problem in "finger placement" trying to presss certain white and black at the same time feels unnatural, i there some sort of method for understanding "finger technique"?
"You are going to let the fear of poverty govern your life and your reward will be that you will eat, but you will not live."
-
- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Well, this is rather a 'can of worms', as I dont think any two people agree on exactly how to play!
But if you look to two polar extremes, you might say that some prefer to play from the fingers, others from the arm. This means that some people value finger dexterity while others prefer larger motions using the entire arm (if not entire body).
Obviously this is difficult to explain without actually showing you! But finger technique would be acquired through exercises like Hanon (plus the multitude of other finger exercise programs by the likes of Cortot etc) aswell as selected repertoire. The aim with these is to achieve independance and strength in all of the digits so one can play purely from the fingers alone. I think that Bach Inventions, Mozart and Scarlatti sonatas are perfect for this kind of 'finger' technique.
Playing with the 'arm' is more a matter of investigatory practice. By this I mean sitting at the piano and literally investigating the most effective 'movement' to achieve a particular group of notes. Perhaps you can an arpeggio run, so you will experiment ways to play the run and pass the thumb using a motion which will likely involve the entire body (subtly). The point being though, that you are relying on the weight of the arm and movement of the body to play the notes, rather than the strength of the fingers (well, the weak muscles in the hand and arm).
For this technique, I think Chopin's Etudes are great. Most of them have both musicial and technique difficulties, and are amazing pieces to boot! Some of them can only be played 'easily' once the right movement has been fingered out. So they are great for learning how to 'investigate' technically.
In reality I think most people play using both methods. Young pianist's (children) tend to acquire good finger technique early on so dont have to worry about it in adulthood. However, for adult beginniers, this can be difficult. So I guess I might speculate that adult beginners might be better off sacking finger 'drills' and attempting to overcome technical hurdles through investigatory practice of movement.
Some also think that finger exercises are dangerous on today's pianos with their heavier actions. Hanon exercises might have been fine on feather weight keyboards, but today that way of playing is a recipe for injury (so Im told).
Regarding slow and fast practice...
Both are very important (imo). But I think you have to know the purpose of each. If used wrongly, I believe they can hinder rather than help. For instance, there is little point practicing fast 'movements' slowly. To do so would render the practice redundant as its highly likely that the technique will be different when played at different speeds!
A perfect example of this is how the thumb passes in fast vs slow scales. In slow scales, the thumb reaches under the hand to achieve a true legato. But above a certain tempo, this movement become inefficient, and the hand is required to 'shift' aswell. This prevents the fingers from 'falling over themselves'.
So trying to learn a fast scale slowly would be pointless, as the technique changes depending on speed! What you can do however is practice in 'slow motion', meaning that you practice the exact same movement (that you'd use at full speed) exaggerated and slowed down. Dont ever confuse 'slow' and 'slow motion'! To play slowly would be to walk instead of run. To play in slow motion would be to run, slowed down! You could sprint using a walking technique, right?
What you might do instead is break the scale or arpeggio in 'blocks', and learn how to play these with just a roll of the hand / arm. You should be able to play them incredibly fast! The ofcourse you have to deal with the hard bit, ie, moving to the next position! That is the tricky part, and thats where you have to spend most of your time.
Imo, the best time for slow practice is when trying to learn passages and commit them to memory. And also when trying to put the hands together. When I can play the hands seperately at full speed, then it helps me alot to slow it right down and take my time coordinating the two hands together. Then gradually speed back up again.
Anyway, I hope some of this has helped you out. Im probably not the best at explaining it to be honest... Im no piano teacher! So if Iv confused you even more, just do what everyone else does and get some Czerny studies down your neck
All the best,
TB
But if you look to two polar extremes, you might say that some prefer to play from the fingers, others from the arm. This means that some people value finger dexterity while others prefer larger motions using the entire arm (if not entire body).
Obviously this is difficult to explain without actually showing you! But finger technique would be acquired through exercises like Hanon (plus the multitude of other finger exercise programs by the likes of Cortot etc) aswell as selected repertoire. The aim with these is to achieve independance and strength in all of the digits so one can play purely from the fingers alone. I think that Bach Inventions, Mozart and Scarlatti sonatas are perfect for this kind of 'finger' technique.
Playing with the 'arm' is more a matter of investigatory practice. By this I mean sitting at the piano and literally investigating the most effective 'movement' to achieve a particular group of notes. Perhaps you can an arpeggio run, so you will experiment ways to play the run and pass the thumb using a motion which will likely involve the entire body (subtly). The point being though, that you are relying on the weight of the arm and movement of the body to play the notes, rather than the strength of the fingers (well, the weak muscles in the hand and arm).
For this technique, I think Chopin's Etudes are great. Most of them have both musicial and technique difficulties, and are amazing pieces to boot! Some of them can only be played 'easily' once the right movement has been fingered out. So they are great for learning how to 'investigate' technically.
In reality I think most people play using both methods. Young pianist's (children) tend to acquire good finger technique early on so dont have to worry about it in adulthood. However, for adult beginniers, this can be difficult. So I guess I might speculate that adult beginners might be better off sacking finger 'drills' and attempting to overcome technical hurdles through investigatory practice of movement.
Some also think that finger exercises are dangerous on today's pianos with their heavier actions. Hanon exercises might have been fine on feather weight keyboards, but today that way of playing is a recipe for injury (so Im told).
Regarding slow and fast practice...
Both are very important (imo). But I think you have to know the purpose of each. If used wrongly, I believe they can hinder rather than help. For instance, there is little point practicing fast 'movements' slowly. To do so would render the practice redundant as its highly likely that the technique will be different when played at different speeds!
A perfect example of this is how the thumb passes in fast vs slow scales. In slow scales, the thumb reaches under the hand to achieve a true legato. But above a certain tempo, this movement become inefficient, and the hand is required to 'shift' aswell. This prevents the fingers from 'falling over themselves'.
So trying to learn a fast scale slowly would be pointless, as the technique changes depending on speed! What you can do however is practice in 'slow motion', meaning that you practice the exact same movement (that you'd use at full speed) exaggerated and slowed down. Dont ever confuse 'slow' and 'slow motion'! To play slowly would be to walk instead of run. To play in slow motion would be to run, slowed down! You could sprint using a walking technique, right?
What you might do instead is break the scale or arpeggio in 'blocks', and learn how to play these with just a roll of the hand / arm. You should be able to play them incredibly fast! The ofcourse you have to deal with the hard bit, ie, moving to the next position! That is the tricky part, and thats where you have to spend most of your time.
Imo, the best time for slow practice is when trying to learn passages and commit them to memory. And also when trying to put the hands together. When I can play the hands seperately at full speed, then it helps me alot to slow it right down and take my time coordinating the two hands together. Then gradually speed back up again.
Anyway, I hope some of this has helped you out. Im probably not the best at explaining it to be honest... Im no piano teacher! So if Iv confused you even more, just do what everyone else does and get some Czerny studies down your neck
All the best,
TB
-
- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Perhaps change the fingering?No name wrote:I have a particular problem in "finger placement" trying to presss certain white and black at the same time feels unnatural, i there some sort of method for understanding "finger technique"?
Im not totally sure what you mean though.
TB
-
- KVRAF
- 4222 posts since 23 Feb, 2004 from Tucson Arizona USA
I've been playing piano for nearly forty years. I have to tell you that you never get over it. Even Horowitz played some wrong notes. Just practice and you will get better at hitting more right notes than wrong. It really does boil down to something this simple.No name wrote:I actually have a small problem with how I play...sometimes I fumble over some keys, and end up hitting the wrong key altogether. How did you guys get over it?
-
- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
He did, but I think was part of his charm. Plus, towards the end I dont think he really cared so much.james0tucson wrote:I've been playing piano for nearly forty years. I have to tell you that you never get over it. Even Horowitz played some wrong notes. Just practice and you will get better at hitting more right notes than wrong. It really does boil down to something this simple.No name wrote:I actually have a small problem with how I play...sometimes I fumble over some keys, and end up hitting the wrong key altogether. How did you guys get over it?
But it is possible. Pianist's like Michelangli, Hamelin etc... those guys just play perfectly... always! Its freaky, like they are on strings or something.
TB
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1891 posts since 9 Oct, 2004 from Columbus,Ohio
I'll explain...tee boy wrote:Perhaps change the fingering?No name wrote:I have a particular problem in "finger placement" trying to presss certain white and black at the same time feels unnatural, i there some sort of method for understanding "finger technique"?
Im not totally sure what you mean though.
TB
Right now i'm playing different pieces of music, and the particular one that i've had trouble with is chord progressions in Pachabel's Canon in D. I have trouble making the transition from vi (which is Bm, or B,D,F#) to chord iii (which is F#m, or F#,A,C#) Now, when I hit the vi chord I use my ring, middle fingers and thumb, and then i'll make the transition to the iii chord using the very same fingers to press the keys. Actually, at closer examination i'm realizing this is highly un-natural because i'm twisting my hand just a litttttllle bit, and the middle finger on that A should not be there, it doesn't feel right.
Is this any clearer?
@james0tucson
This doesn't surprise me, but I REALLY have to practice a lot more, I don't think that i've taken the music as seriously as I should/wanted in the past decade. I love doing music, which is why i'm so eager to learn all of this.
"You are going to let the fear of poverty govern your life and your reward will be that you will eat, but you will not live."
-
- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Change the fingering, definately.
Assuming that is in the left hand, I would use one of several fingerings (depending on the speed, pedalling directions etc).
You would get the most seemless transition I think if you use:
543 321
So playing the first chord with fingers 543, then 'pivotting; onto the next chord.
Ofcourse, that isnt the most comfortable fingering. And if you can afford to either pedal the chord change or detach the rhythm slightly, then:
532 421 , might be better.
I dont know, fingering is kind of personal (insert inuendo here ). If I were you Id mess around with a few and see which is the most comfortable.
TB
Assuming that is in the left hand, I would use one of several fingerings (depending on the speed, pedalling directions etc).
You would get the most seemless transition I think if you use:
543 321
So playing the first chord with fingers 543, then 'pivotting; onto the next chord.
Ofcourse, that isnt the most comfortable fingering. And if you can afford to either pedal the chord change or detach the rhythm slightly, then:
532 421 , might be better.
I dont know, fingering is kind of personal (insert inuendo here
). If I were you Id mess around with a few and see which is the most comfortable.TB
-
- KVRAF
- 4222 posts since 23 Feb, 2004 from Tucson Arizona USA
Horowitz had stage fright also -- frequently had to be pushed onto stage.tee boy wrote:He did, but I think was part of his charm. Plus, towards the end I dont think he really cared so much.james0tucson wrote:I've been playing piano for nearly forty years. I have to tell you that you never get over it. Even Horowitz played some wrong notes. Just practice and you will get better at hitting more right notes than wrong. It really does boil down to something this simple.No name wrote:I actually have a small problem with how I play...sometimes I fumble over some keys, and end up hitting the wrong key altogether. How did you guys get over it?
TB
Guitarist Jerry Garcia had the same problem. Stage fright. Played 300 nights a year for freaking *ever*, and yet, he had to have a roadie whose job it was to walk behind Jerry and deal with him when he tried to turn around and get out of it. What a job. I witnessed this with my own eyes; it blew my mind.
-
- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Id didnt know that! I heard that he quit for quite a while though, due to insecurities about his ability. Perhaps that was a similar deal. Though somehow, having seen the man play octaves, I find that difficult to believe!
Didnt Rachmaninov also have stage fright? Iv heard it said that the entire first theme of his 2nd Concerto was orchestrated to 'hide' any mistakes and warm up the hands for this very reason. God knows if thats true, but it must be said that the orchestra does cover the piano well.
TB
Didnt Rachmaninov also have stage fright? Iv heard it said that the entire first theme of his 2nd Concerto was orchestrated to 'hide' any mistakes and warm up the hands for this very reason. God knows if thats true, but it must be said that the orchestra does cover the piano well.
TB
-
- KVRist
- 492 posts since 16 Oct, 2004
I have a question on 'hands' technique that I thought I may as well include in this thread instead of starting another as it's related to the topic...
Recently I've committed myself to studying music theory and have found my piano/keyboard to be a great help when trying to 'see' as well as hear certain relationships and progressions etc. Consequently I'm now playing keys for several hours a day.
The problem I'm having is a lot of pain in my hands and wrists. I was wondering if anyone could give me some help and guidance on this please?
When I look at what I'm doing I notice the following:
1. My elbows are either touching, or very near, my rib cage. (unless I am reaching for octaves further away)
2. My thumbs form a straight line with my forearm. That is to say, the whole length of my thumb is in the same plane as my forearm - my arm and thumb form one continuous straight line.
3. My right-hand fingers are angled (at about 45degrees)to the right, relative to my forearm.
My left-hand fingers are angled the same as for my right-hand but pointing to the left.
i.e. Sitting in front of the piano, square on, with my fingers resting on the keys, my right wrist is angled such that my little finger is pointing towards the higher notes (right), and my left-hand's little finger is pointing towards the bass notes. My thumbs face directly forward - inline with the line made by my forearm (i.e. the whole length of my thumb also forms a straight line with the key it is resting on).
I do intend to get a pianist to visit and help with basic ergonomics etc, but this won't happen immediately.
Could anyone please offer any advice on this to help me out in meantime?
Thank you!
Deric.
Recently I've committed myself to studying music theory and have found my piano/keyboard to be a great help when trying to 'see' as well as hear certain relationships and progressions etc. Consequently I'm now playing keys for several hours a day.
The problem I'm having is a lot of pain in my hands and wrists. I was wondering if anyone could give me some help and guidance on this please?
When I look at what I'm doing I notice the following:
1. My elbows are either touching, or very near, my rib cage. (unless I am reaching for octaves further away)
2. My thumbs form a straight line with my forearm. That is to say, the whole length of my thumb is in the same plane as my forearm - my arm and thumb form one continuous straight line.
3. My right-hand fingers are angled (at about 45degrees)to the right, relative to my forearm.
My left-hand fingers are angled the same as for my right-hand but pointing to the left.
i.e. Sitting in front of the piano, square on, with my fingers resting on the keys, my right wrist is angled such that my little finger is pointing towards the higher notes (right), and my left-hand's little finger is pointing towards the bass notes. My thumbs face directly forward - inline with the line made by my forearm (i.e. the whole length of my thumb also forms a straight line with the key it is resting on).
I do intend to get a pianist to visit and help with basic ergonomics etc, but this won't happen immediately.
Could anyone please offer any advice on this to help me out in meantime?
Thank you!
Deric.