Here's a western theory question I'd like elucidated

[runagate]

Though I don't use theory the way people who study it do, I'm fairly knowledgeable about it in a non-applied way.

My theory uses cadences and contour and uneven meters and all sorts of the good stuff.

What I don't think I've gotten my head wrapped around at all yet is chordal modes.

I don't even know what you call them, really.
I understand scalar modes but I've no idea how to understand how chord patterns have modes or how one might understand and apply this knowledge.

Anyone take a stab at explaining this, please?

[Toxikator]

Are we talking diatonically?

realistically speaking all you'd do is play "in key". "chordal modes", as you put them, are sort of one way of analyzing which notes to play along the root chord.

say you're in C (major).

When the chord is "C", the "Ionian" or "major" mode would be the mode you'd play from.

When that chord moves to "E", playing the Ionian/major (on E) would break key, so you instead play the Phrygian.

Of course, you're really still playing in the original C major, only you're beginning and ending on E. But, it helps some people (particularly improvisors who tend to think in terms of scale patterns) to know what scale to play, "starting from" the chord in question.

[runagate]

But what if the chord isn't major?
I'm an improvisor who thinks in chord patterns (by ear, not by name, I just know how they sound) but isn't a minor chord in the minor mode of a chord pattern? So... damn, plus in jazz there's slightly different naming conventions than in Classical so that always confounds me, too.

[Toxikator]

Well let's try it for minor.

In A minor, when the chord is "a", the "mode" (really, more like viable note pattern) is the aeolian or minor mode.

Suppose that chord changes (still in the KEY of A minor, though) to G. Now, the "mode" being played is the G mixolydian mode... it's still A minor, only it's A minor beginning with G instead of A.

All the modes are interrelated like this. From ANY mode, if you pick a note other than the tonic and count a scale from there you'll be in another mode.

it's just about understanding those relationships.

Remember that modes can be figured by counting white keys (because that's how they're built).

TECHNICALLY each mode HAS to begin with it's corresponding white key and any alternate variations (say, Mixolydian on Bb) are considered mode transpositions, but that's pedantry that I won't waste my time on for the purposes of this discussion.l

For each key of the keyboard, the following are the modes:

C - Major/Ionian
D - Dorian
E - Phrygian (my personal favorite)
F - Lydian
G - Mixolydian
A - Aeolian/Minor
B - Locrian

So if you're in the key of C, those are the modes that would "correspond" to each chord being played. (remember, you'd still be in the key of C)

Since each note here represents a scale degree of C, you can also think of them like this:

I - Major/Ionian
ii - Dorian
iii - Phrygian (my personal favorite)
IV - Lydian
V - Mixolydian
vi - Aeolian/Minor
viio - Locrian

So for the key of Eb major, if you played the chord G minor, that would be the iii, so you'd play the Phrygian mode on G.

The other rotation is for songs IN a mode, you just 'scroll' the list.

So if you were in A minor, the list changes to

A - Aeolian/Minor
B - Locrian
C - Major/Ionian
D - Dorian
E - Phrygian (my personal favorite)
F - Lydian
G - Mixolydian

since A minor corresponds to C major.

For C minor, you would use the corresponding list from Eb major, mentioned above.

[runagate]

Ah, I see. Thats a very clear way of explaining it.

Thanks, Toxikator

I know this from my PC teching - people who know what they're talking about often don't remember what it was like to not know about something and thus have a terrible time explaining it. Music is usually the worst, come to think of it. Thanks again, I always wondered how that worked but most people either don't know or can't explain.

[Toxikator]

beefed it up a bit

For anyone reading on and REALLY confused, a better explanation:

Notes, as you would imagine, move in a circle.

As in, CDEFGABCDEFGABC etc etc.

each of the seven modes corresponds to a note or, in the case discussed here, a chord/scale degree which corresponds to a note.

So it may help to think of MODES in a circle as well.

Major (Ionian)
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Minor (Aeolian)
Locrian
Major (Ionian) again
...etc.

Within this circle, first you must determine what key/mode you're in.

Suppose you're in the key of D minor.

The first thing you do is find the mode/scale type you're working with. Here, it's minor.

Assign (either in your head or on paper if you prefer) your tonic note, here "D", to this scale. Now, move along each consecutive note IN the scale and assign it to the next consecutive mode.

D - Minor (Aeolian)
E - Locrian
F - Major (Ionian)
G - Dorian
A - Phrygian
Bb - Lydian
C - Mixolydian
D - Minor (Aeolian) again.

Now, when you play the 6th scale degree (Bb Major, here) you'll know to work on the Bb Lydian pattern for your melodic phrases/ideas. You're still IN D minor, but the mode you assign the chord helps keep the harmony consistent.

[tee boy]

Rungate,

This isnt strictly in answer to your question, but rather a point I think may be useful to you.

You do not 'use' theory in your music. Theory is the explanation of music through analysis! I think that when you understand this, it is far easier to learn about music and apply techniques to your own composition.

But it is never about learning some piece of theory and then trying to find a way to make it sound good. Its about making something that sounds good, then trying to explain WHY it sound that way in theoretical terms!

Ofcourse, that isnt to say that you cant invent theoretical principles before a composition and adhere to them strictly! That can be very creative - to limit ones options.

My point being though, that it is almost always more creatively satisfying to experience the music first, then later trying to understand it. If I were you, Id look into the composers and musicians using this technique before you to try to understand it in theoretical terms.

TB

[runagate]

Your points are pretty much what I'd say, too, it's just that I use the term "use" inasmuch as I delve into theory for structural/mathematical ideas in a way I didn't specify.

Playing improv jazz and all sorts of other prog things, and listening very very closely for years allows one insight into the way music works behind the scenes just like theory knowledge would, escept in some deeper structuaral ways when composing.

I can run counterpoint in my head, polyrhythms and bizarre chord changes that would be impossible for most to hold in their head but there's some intellectually-derived musical structures that don't seem to come from the creative imagination so much as interesting mathematical formulations... obviously I can't provide a good example because I wouldn't know what to call it but I think one that perplexed the hell out o me until someone explained the music theory ideas behind it is "Disco King" by David Bowie which is odd because in most ways it's a pretty standard jazz progression. But there's some voodoo in the intervalic ratios that just wouldn't ever have occured to me not being a chordal instrument player (it's piano, mostly, in that song) and I know things that I couldn't dream up in my head when I hear them and go to a theory-fluent person and ask them what's up.

Kinda see what I'm saying? Math and creativity both contribute a lot to music and I'm sorely lacking when it comes to some of the more intelectualized abstract constructions. Course, on the other hand I can rattle off modally-shifting things without the constraint of some former teacher cringing in my subconscious so it's a trade-off certainly.