Deric,
sounds to me that you are sitting too close to the keyboard, which causes your hands angled too much. Be VERY careful with that, always try to get your arms (and whole body) in a position so you can avoid overly angling. Otherwise it will put too much strain on your tendon sheaths, and you'll end up with a tendovaginitis (typist's cramp). I had the exact same problem only 2 months after starting with lessons - I had to pause for almost a year!
Make it a habit to warm up before practicing, best with stretching exercises (or simply start playing slowly with exercises you're already comfortable with). STOP practicing at once when you feel a pain in your hands or forearm. Don't overdo it and take regular breaks to RELAX your hands, arms, shoulders and neck. If possible, practice several times a day for a shorter period rather than hours in one go.
Hope this helps a bit!
werner
Keyboard Technique.
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- KVRian
- 878 posts since 24 Jan, 2006 from Universe #5346198720
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- KVRist
- 492 posts since 16 Oct, 2004
dreamkeeper/werner,
Many thanks for your input and advice on this! I'll take note of your suggestions (I certainly don't want a year off!) and experiment with my seating position distance relative to the keys shortly, thank you!
Can you suggest any good warm up exercises please?
Thanks again!
Many thanks for your input and advice on this! I'll take note of your suggestions (I certainly don't want a year off!) and experiment with my seating position distance relative to the keys shortly, thank you!
Can you suggest any good warm up exercises please?
Thanks again!
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- KVRian
- 878 posts since 24 Jan, 2006 from Universe #5346198720
I'll try to explain later, after supper. But keep in mind that English isn't my 1st language, so I might use the wrong terms - but I'll try...
The hole is deeper than the hum of its farts
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- KVRAF
- 2217 posts since 15 Jul, 2003
i'm in a cramped little space and while my right hand is serviceable for wrist neutrality and crab position for playing
the poor left hand gets twisted if I don't pay attenjtion and my left pinkie can end up playing on its side -- it doesn't take long for that to cause an ache
these little things and bad habits need attention
the poor left hand gets twisted if I don't pay attenjtion and my left pinkie can end up playing on its side -- it doesn't take long for that to cause an ache
these little things and bad habits need attention
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- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
You should NEVER feel any pain or discomfort. Doing so puts you at serious risk of injury!
The ideal way to play is with relaxation. The only tension should be in your fingers just before a key is struck. But the wrist, hand and arm should remain relaxed during play.
If you are having problems with tension (resulting in pain) then I would listen to Dreamkeeper and experiment with different seating positions, first. Generally speaking, your elbows / wrists should be level and at 90 degrees with the keyboard. Be sure not to sit TOO far away though, as this can cause back problems.
TB
The ideal way to play is with relaxation. The only tension should be in your fingers just before a key is struck. But the wrist, hand and arm should remain relaxed during play.
If you are having problems with tension (resulting in pain) then I would listen to Dreamkeeper and experiment with different seating positions, first. Generally speaking, your elbows / wrists should be level and at 90 degrees with the keyboard. Be sure not to sit TOO far away though, as this can cause back problems.
TB
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- KVRist
- 492 posts since 16 Oct, 2004
Oh dear! Sounds like I have been getting it wrong then (not for the first time either..). Thanks for the responses so far!
dreamkeeper, hope tea was good, save me some!
tee boy, thanks - seems like my seat was too high as well then as my forearms were angled-down to get to the keys...
Carpel who? Sounds good anyway!
dreamkeeper I was too close! Now my middle finger is pointing straight ahead and not my thumb.
Is there some sort of guide as to how far away I should be seated?
What's this 'crab hand' referred to in this thread? I could take a guess etc. but would prefer someone who actually knows to explain what it is and what I should be looking for/trying to achieve.
Many thanks again!
dreamkeeper, hope tea was good, save me some!
tee boy, thanks - seems like my seat was too high as well then as my forearms were angled-down to get to the keys...
Carpel who? Sounds good anyway!
dreamkeeper I was too close! Now my middle finger is pointing straight ahead and not my thumb.
Is there some sort of guide as to how far away I should be seated?
What's this 'crab hand' referred to in this thread? I could take a guess etc. but would prefer someone who actually knows to explain what it is and what I should be looking for/trying to achieve.
Many thanks again!
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- KVRian
- 878 posts since 24 Jan, 2006 from Universe #5346198720
Ok, here goes:
The principle is the same as warming up before jogging or any kind of sport, i.e. primarily stretching the tendons to minimize the strain they're putting on their sheaths. The region that is most prone to injuries in this case is the carpal tunnel (RSI anyone?) which is located in the wrist. Overly angling your hand to the side increases the strain here, especially in combination with repetitive movements of your fingers.
This exercise has been shown to me by a guitarist who had trouble with tendonitis for several years before. I think it's quite efficient although I don't do it all the time (but I'm a lazy bastard anyways
).
Cower on the floor (a thick carpet or some mat would be good) and put your palms flat on the floor left and right from your knees with the fingers pointing forward. Now bow slowly forward, so your elbows will be forced gently(!) towards your fingers. Move until you feel a good tension in your wrist, don't overdo it! Hold the tension for about 30 seconds, then move slowly back and repeat 5 times or so.
After that relax for a moment and then turn your hands upside down, so your palms are pointing upwards with the back of your hands lying flat on the floor. Now basically do the same as before, but moving BACKWARDS this time.
Always make sure you're as relaxed as possible, try to find the position you're feeling most comfortable with. If you're cramped and strained, this exercise might not do any good. Same goes for the playing itself. Learn to read the signals of your body. As soon as you feel some tension in your neck or shoulders, take a break, walk around, move your arms through the air or whatever. Take care particularly when doing repetitive exercises like practicing scales or the like.
If you're using a normal chair, don't lean back. Bring yourself in an upright position, maybe slide a bit forward to the edge. Best would be of course a piano bench, which also allows you to slide left and right some.
It would be really the best if you could ask an experienced pianist for some tips and have him/her look after what you're doing. Whatever you do, in my opinion the key is staying relaxed. It's not only good for your health, but will also give you overall a better experience and help you achieving your musical goals.
Hope I have explained it well enough. Just ask if something isn't clear and I'll try to clarify. You should also find some more infos somewhere around the web, problems with tendonitis of all kinds seem to be very common for musicians.
Take care and Happy New Year!
werner
The principle is the same as warming up before jogging or any kind of sport, i.e. primarily stretching the tendons to minimize the strain they're putting on their sheaths. The region that is most prone to injuries in this case is the carpal tunnel (RSI anyone?) which is located in the wrist. Overly angling your hand to the side increases the strain here, especially in combination with repetitive movements of your fingers.
This exercise has been shown to me by a guitarist who had trouble with tendonitis for several years before. I think it's quite efficient although I don't do it all the time (but I'm a lazy bastard anyways
).Cower on the floor (a thick carpet or some mat would be good) and put your palms flat on the floor left and right from your knees with the fingers pointing forward. Now bow slowly forward, so your elbows will be forced gently(!) towards your fingers. Move until you feel a good tension in your wrist, don't overdo it! Hold the tension for about 30 seconds, then move slowly back and repeat 5 times or so.
After that relax for a moment and then turn your hands upside down, so your palms are pointing upwards with the back of your hands lying flat on the floor. Now basically do the same as before, but moving BACKWARDS this time.
Always make sure you're as relaxed as possible, try to find the position you're feeling most comfortable with. If you're cramped and strained, this exercise might not do any good. Same goes for the playing itself. Learn to read the signals of your body. As soon as you feel some tension in your neck or shoulders, take a break, walk around, move your arms through the air or whatever. Take care particularly when doing repetitive exercises like practicing scales or the like.
If you're using a normal chair, don't lean back. Bring yourself in an upright position, maybe slide a bit forward to the edge. Best would be of course a piano bench, which also allows you to slide left and right some.
It would be really the best if you could ask an experienced pianist for some tips and have him/her look after what you're doing. Whatever you do, in my opinion the key is staying relaxed. It's not only good for your health, but will also give you overall a better experience and help you achieving your musical goals.
Hope I have explained it well enough. Just ask if something isn't clear and I'll try to clarify. You should also find some more infos somewhere around the web, problems with tendonitis of all kinds seem to be very common for musicians.
Take care and Happy New Year!
werner
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- KVRist
- 492 posts since 16 Oct, 2004
hey dreamkeeper thanks for taking the time to provide such comprehensive advice (and I do get a LOT of neck ache!).
I just want to ask about the floor exercise you mention:
1. Am I supposed to be on my knees to do this?
2. Do I put my hands either side of my knees, or in front of them?
Many thanks again and a Happy New Year to you too!
Cheers!
Deric.
I just want to ask about the floor exercise you mention:
1. Am I supposed to be on my knees to do this?
2. Do I put my hands either side of my knees, or in front of them?
Many thanks again and a Happy New Year to you too!
Cheers!
Deric.
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- KVRian
- 878 posts since 24 Jan, 2006 from Universe #5346198720
You're welcome!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome
One more thing: If your hands are aching already, take a break for some days and be careful with everything you're doing with your hands (no screwdriver!
). If it's not getting better within a week, see a doctor! Have him/her your blood checked, if there's an inflammation it CAN be detected. I "used up" several doctors until one had the idea to do this finally, no kidding! By then the inflammation was already gone, but the pain remained, somehow "burned" into my brain - go figure! Now, 2 years later, my hands still do not feel quite right, but it's Ok! Just so you know about what might happen...
As for the right position to the keyboard... well, it depends on your physiognomy. For some a 90 degree angle between forearm and upper arm will be just right, personally (I have long arms) I prefer sitting a bit more back. Experiment, listen to your body! You want the most freedom of movement combined with the most comfortable position. You should be able to reach all keys without moving your body too much and without getting your chest in the way of your elbows. For 88 keys, your normal position should be slightly left from center, but it depends on what you're playing, in what range that is.
werner
Yes.1. Am I supposed to be on my knees to do this?
Either side and experiment with the exact position until you feel comfortable with it. Always keep in mind what I said about the principle behind this and listen to your body.2. Do I put my hands either side of my knees, or in front of them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome
One more thing: If your hands are aching already, take a break for some days and be careful with everything you're doing with your hands (no screwdriver!
). If it's not getting better within a week, see a doctor! Have him/her your blood checked, if there's an inflammation it CAN be detected. I "used up" several doctors until one had the idea to do this finally, no kidding! By then the inflammation was already gone, but the pain remained, somehow "burned" into my brain - go figure! Now, 2 years later, my hands still do not feel quite right, but it's Ok! Just so you know about what might happen...As for the right position to the keyboard... well, it depends on your physiognomy. For some a 90 degree angle between forearm and upper arm will be just right, personally (I have long arms) I prefer sitting a bit more back. Experiment, listen to your body! You want the most freedom of movement combined with the most comfortable position. You should be able to reach all keys without moving your body too much and without getting your chest in the way of your elbows. For 88 keys, your normal position should be slightly left from center, but it depends on what you're playing, in what range that is.
werner
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- KVRist
- 492 posts since 16 Oct, 2004
dreamkeeper thank you so much for your time, help, and advice - I hadn't realised that this is/could-be quite so serious!
I'll (reluctantly) follow your advice and stop playing for a few days as I do have continual pain in my wrists (mind you my playing (as well as understanding) and enjoyment has increased markedly).
If anything I was seated to the right - but often play the lower octaves!
I'll arrange my position with your advice in mind (I have long arms too).
I'll also try and pay more attention to what my body is telling me as opposed to being quite so 'on a mission'...
Once again dreamkeeper, thank you and have a lovely evening!
Cheers!
Deric.
I'll (reluctantly) follow your advice and stop playing for a few days as I do have continual pain in my wrists (mind you my playing (as well as understanding) and enjoyment has increased markedly).
If anything I was seated to the right - but often play the lower octaves!
I'll arrange my position with your advice in mind (I have long arms too).
I'll also try and pay more attention to what my body is telling me as opposed to being quite so 'on a mission'...
Once again dreamkeeper, thank you and have a lovely evening!
Cheers!
Deric.
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- KVRian
- 878 posts since 24 Jan, 2006 from Universe #5346198720
Deric - Glad if I could be of some help!
Just in case you'll have to take the "doctor route" (or for anybody lurking), some tips from my experience:
Some doctors seem to take tendovaginitis not too serious, meaning that all have their own "ideas" what's best. In any event, make sure that all necessary tests are done, esp. blood check. DON'T get your wrist (or more) immobilized for an extended period, NO CAST! That's therapy from yesterday and will often cause even more problems in the long run.
Often the underlying problem is not in the hands or arms themselves. Cramped neck and shoulder muscles can affect the nerves that are running from the spine to your hands, thus causing you pain and initiate further problems. It's sad, but some doctors do not take this into account and may diagnose wrong in these cases. Ask your doctor for physiotherapy and exercises for your back, that's always a good thing and often will help with the hands as well.
Sorry for being so gabby, but I know what I've been through and I don't wish it even on my enemy.
Have a good one and let us know how it goes.
werner
Ah, now it's midnight here...
*feeeeep* *KRAWOOOMMM*
Just in case you'll have to take the "doctor route" (or for anybody lurking), some tips from my experience:
Some doctors seem to take tendovaginitis not too serious, meaning that all have their own "ideas" what's best. In any event, make sure that all necessary tests are done, esp. blood check. DON'T get your wrist (or more) immobilized for an extended period, NO CAST! That's therapy from yesterday and will often cause even more problems in the long run.
Often the underlying problem is not in the hands or arms themselves. Cramped neck and shoulder muscles can affect the nerves that are running from the spine to your hands, thus causing you pain and initiate further problems. It's sad, but some doctors do not take this into account and may diagnose wrong in these cases. Ask your doctor for physiotherapy and exercises for your back, that's always a good thing and often will help with the hands as well.
I know what you mean. Trust me, taking a few days off from playing won't hurt one bit! Often a break can be even good, because the things you practice will then have the chance to sink in, and next time some of it will feel much more natural than before. Isn't the human body a wondrous thing?I'll also try and pay more attention to what my body is telling me as opposed to being quite so 'on a mission'...
Sorry for being so gabby, but I know what I've been through and I don't wish it even on my enemy.
Have a good one and let us know how it goes.
werner
Ah, now it's midnight here...
*feeeeep* *KRAWOOOMMM*
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- KVRist
- 492 posts since 16 Oct, 2004
That's wonderful. Pleased to meet you.
At risk of sounding like a stuck record, thank you.
I will take your words seriously, I have played guitar most of my life and never wish to be unable to.
Happy new year and may you get the most out if it.
Deric.
Edit: Ps. Impeccable timing too
At risk of sounding like a stuck record, thank you.
I will take your words seriously, I have played guitar most of my life and never wish to be unable to.
Happy new year and may you get the most out if it.
Deric.
Edit: Ps. Impeccable timing too