can you put a name to this chord

[Gregjazz]

Hmmm, that sure beats Walter the alt chord.

[[godbox]]

The triad consisting of C, D, F (transpositions aside) has all the same intervals as this. Notice the similarity between these two triads. Just something for you to play around with.

when I think of you?

[susiwong]

Gordon,
am I correct that "pinting out" is a scientific term mostly used in the British pub scene ?
Never mind, it's 7 o'clock in the morning, just came home myself.
Good night,
susiwong

[Scoops]

bit of a shocker, 2nd thread I've started today, I think I might have to settle down a bit... Now wheres the Bourbon?:shock:

using a chord with C,Eb,F in it. Any one know what it is called. C minor bb5 ?

the root note is C, the key is C minor pentatonic.

Well, here's another take.....
I dont think one can name the chord until one knows the context.
What comes before it? What comes after it? Is it just a passing chord? Is it an alteration to the tonic? Is it a leading chord to get to a differnt key? ....and so on and so forth

Scoops

[onexeno]

+1 to both your posts, Beardedone.

[funkychickendance]

cool stuff guys. I love ambiguous chords like this one. They can take a progression in many diffeent directions.

Cheers,
Gordon

Funny...I thought of this as Cm7 (but of course it's not, that's C-Eb-G-Bb, right?) Whatever it's called, I use it pretty often, along with C-D-F (which, now I think of it, I can't name either )

/funxi
the curse of guitar players; they plonk familiar looking finger patterns down all over piano keyboards, and expect the same results they get on fretboards

[xtp]

Well, here's another take.....
I dont think one can name the chord until one knows the context.
What comes before it? What comes after it? Is it just a passing chord? Is it an alteration to the tonic? Is it a leading chord to get to a differnt key? ....and so on and so forth

Scoops

I think I'll probably call it a F7, but here is a audio snippet. I included a few bars before and after and ran it out using a fairly neutral piano sound font. Take into account this is at early composition stage and not meant for piano so the phrasings a tad jerky.

In the whole passage this is the only place where chords occur. There is still a second and possibly third instrument to be added, and I had intended any chords+intervals to be voiced only from the crossing of 3 seperate melodies. (So there is the possibilty I may lift the chorded passage out and store it away for a rainy day)

So on special this week and only for the curious.

The chords used are 'Howard 7',Cm & Bb

http://download.jupiter.come2store.com/ ... 0forum.mp3

And here is the corresponding passage of sheet music as ran out from Cubase. Its in 7/4



Cheers for all the feedback, I'll look at that one GregJazz.

[northland]

I'd go for Cmsus4. C is the root of the scale.

Now allow me to go nuts.

I think that, since it is a pentatonic scale; we have to ignore anything that can happen "outside" that scale.
So the minor third becomes the 2nd,
The 4th becomes the 3rd
The 5th becomes the 4th
The 7th becomes the 5th.
Likewise, there are chords that cannot relate to the minor pentatonic because they don't fit in the scale.


Why can't we write our own theory like they do in physics.

[DAAHOOD]

the reference is the fith (in this case f-C)>>> F, C, Eb
anything beyond is pure non-sense in harmony
the fifth is the strongest specific interval (according to nature and physics)
F-C, (5) is then stronger than C-F(4) and is the basic of this chord

or in Jazz it can be a "modal F7" simply,

where is A then ? why not a Ab or any other omitted notes
this chord is nothing but a simple triad without any "3rd" qualification (excepted for C-Eb which is weaker than F-C relation)

modes are scales, intervals are harmony (don't get confused about definition)
harmony isn't a matter of style but a matter of physic and sympatic resonance (according to harmonic series only) that defines the soud of...nature and elements (music "IS" nature, indeed and while we assembly sounds to buid structures and music, we just use nothing but the rules of nature)

just for remembrance: many different "styles" are neither polyphonic nor harmonic but monophonic (according to customs: music from the middle-east, india, china...)
and what we call "jazz" harmony is nothing but an harmonic determination based on western musical traditions which concepts are based upon acoustic and physic laws

theory based on hindemith principes

http://www.msu.edu/user/millett1/hanson.htm[/quote]

[mistertoast]

I think it's just an F power chord with a Eb thrown in.

[liqih]

the reference is the fith (in this case f-C)>>> F, C, Eb
anything beyond is pure non-sense in harmony
the fifth is the strongest specific interval (according to nature and physics)
F-C, (5) is then stronger than C-F(4) and is the basic of this chord

or in Jazz it can be a "modal F7" simply,

where is A then ? why not a Ab or any other omitted notes
this chord is nothing but a simple triad without any "3rd" qualification (excepted for C-Eb which is weaker than F-C relation)

as you confirmed the fifth is the strongest specific interval
so F-C-Eb, with no context info as it was proposed at first,
it's best seen as 7th chord with no 3th, in Jazz is not uncommon to call these "modal chords" as they support nicely modal improvvisation since they don't force you in a major or minor mode,

like drones in hindustan music for istance almost never have 3th
in the drone "chord"

modes are scales, intervals are harmony (don't get confused about definition)

I'm not confused as you see, but scales are made of intervals too

harmony isn't a matter of style but a matter of physic and sympatic resonance (according to harmonic series only) that defines the soud of...nature and elements (music "IS" nature, indeed and while we assembly sounds to buid structures and music, we just use nothing but the rules of nature)

nature didn't create the equal temperament

just for remembrance: many different "styles" are neither polyphonic nor harmonic but monophonic (according to customs: music from the middle-east, india, china...)

that is from a western teminology, music from north india is harmonic but the drone is not notated since fixed once for the whole composition/improvvisation,

it's a distortion of the western accademic mentality to think
that since harmony doesn't change in the western fashion there's no harmony

and what we call "jazz" harmony is nothing but an harmonic determination based on western musical traditions

yes

which concepts are based upon acoustic and physic laws

loosely IMHO, only a few laws are taken in account, most is convenientely adjusted for the european harmony

theory based on hindemith principes

http://www.msu.edu/user/millett1/hanson.htm

[Toxikator]

it's a distortion of the western accademic mentality to think
that since harmony doesn't change in the western fashion there's no harmony

Sort of. If the "chords" aren't changing, they can be seen as imitations, so it's not really harmony so much as monophony. This is especially true of highly consonant intervals like the 5th and octave.

Consider the powerchord (in the context of hard rock): it serves no harmonic function, the fifth is purely timbral. The same is true of drones... playing a "power chord" and sustaining it for the duration of a song hardly counts as harmony. It's polyphony, or monophony in imitation, or even just a single note, if the interval sounds that way...

[DAAHOOD]

I'm not confused as you see, but scales are made of intervals too

i don't agree
scales are made of melodic material, junction and movements of notes that fit together well and vary in time
yo don't need to name all the notes of a scale to describe an harmonic content (restrictive) but only two notes(interval) to describe the basic of a harmonic relation (progressive)

yet, scales were used to "determine" a global and classic concept of harmony (rameau, well temper... ) which has been proven to be obsolete because of reseach made upon harmony, physic and resonance
since that time

nature didn't create the equal temperament

obviously no, but most musics don't fit to the equal temper

harmony is a scientifical approach with moving or changing conceptsto give a rationnal explanation of the relation between sounds in general and this is likely to evolve as much as knowledge is moving on

music from north india is harmonic

i believe it's not,to me it's truly modal and monophonic(no harmonization) as there is no concepts of chord progression or harmonic changes within

as for scales in jazz (my opinion):
they are mainly used by bassists and guitarists (sorry for them) to figure out how to proceed harmony in improvisation without having to name contiguous notes;
as for piano and wind instruments, "straight" harmony is a better help for improvising (because players have to know the notes they use, otherwise they can't play)

[liqih]

it's a distortion of the western accademic mentality to think
that since harmony doesn't change in the western fashion there's no harmony

Sort of. If the "chords" aren't changing, they can be seen as imitations, so it's not really harmony so much as monophony. This is especially true of highly consonant intervals like the 5th and octave.

Consider the powerchord (in the context of hard rock): it serves no harmonic function, the fifth is purely timbral. The same is true of drones... playing a "power chord" and sustaining it for the duration of a song hardly counts as harmony. It's polyphony, or monophony in imitation, or even just a single note, if the interval sounds that way...

yes, what I add is that you can actualy see the melody as the extra note to complete the triad with the drone (or power chord)
so the fifth is not purely timbral,
also note that the drone in hindustan music I was refering too
is picked from different direction and octaves are mostly doubled
so with the "melody" you have triads in various positions (how do you say rivolti in english?)

[Toxikator]

Inversions...?

I'm speaking from ignorance of the genre, so I guess I misunderstood the function of the drone.