You may have wanted to start with voice leading, as the Romantic-era harmonies you're working with sort of supercede some of it's policies and you might find Fux (you'll start with his species counterpoint) a bit constraining.
I had a post about species counterpoint for four voices which you might find enlightening if this is your first attempt, but really the best way to learn is to study the principles of species counterpoint and just practice voiceleading your chord progressions.
My first "post-theory" homework.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 499 posts since 9 Oct, 2005
Well the thing is, I don't even know what woice leading is, hehe. I was really interested by your counterpoint post, haven't had time to dive into it yet, but will do.
English is not my native language, I have a bit of trouble understanding the syntax in "species counterpoint".
Thanks for the info.
English is not my native language, I have a bit of trouble understanding the syntax in "species counterpoint".
Thanks for the info.
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JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
Yes, definitely. You can know all the harmony in the world, but your music will still suck if you don't understand voice leading. Voice leading (also refereed to as Part Writing) is concerned with the relationship between adjacent notes in the individual parts. It is related to counterpoint, and is a horizontal relationship rather than a vertical one (like harmony).cheul wrote:I think the next step I'd like to learn is Voice Leading, is it a good idea at that point ?
The good news is that most of it intuitive. - Play an 'unusual' chord on the piano for example, and you may instinctively get a sense for where the notes want to resolve to.
I wrote some 'rules' of voice leading in this thread which you may find useful.
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- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Voiceleading is practice. I must admit, I find it can be a pain in the arse at times.
But where this gets complex is when you begin to consider polyphony with in your music. Alot of romantic era music APPEARS to be most homophonic (a melody with an accompaniment), but when you look closer into the accompaniment, you'll notice the polyphony.
Chopin, for instance, would incorporate ALOT of polyphony into his music. You may not notice it at first glance, but look closer and you'll find that what seems like a simple accompaniment is actually several voices working quite independantly. Sometimes voices within the 'accompaniment' actually immitate those in the main melody!
Another issue to consider is that of variation. So you have a nice thematic idea, but how are you going to spread it out across an entire piece?
Bach's Inventions are a great place to look for this. He made these pieces primarily out of a one or two tiny melodic motifs! Yet by using contrapunctal techniques, he managed to develope them and build entire pieces!
So while you may not be interested in analysing all of Bach's Inventions and Fugues, it is still worth considering variation and development. You could look into your favorite filmscores and see how they have developed themes through out the entity of a film. Funnily enough, I find that the old Disney films are GREAT for this! Those guys were really amazing.
Orchestration, dynamics, modulation, tempo and rhythm, mode etc, are just a few ways to change a theme to fit a new mood. And that is without going into the deeper intricasies - contrapunctal inversion, melodic inversion etc, and all that stuff.
I have often found it useful to take a phrase from a piece, and see how many cool variations I can do with it. You will be truly AMAZED by how much you can do with a good theme!
TB
But where this gets complex is when you begin to consider polyphony with in your music. Alot of romantic era music APPEARS to be most homophonic (a melody with an accompaniment), but when you look closer into the accompaniment, you'll notice the polyphony.
Chopin, for instance, would incorporate ALOT of polyphony into his music. You may not notice it at first glance, but look closer and you'll find that what seems like a simple accompaniment is actually several voices working quite independantly. Sometimes voices within the 'accompaniment' actually immitate those in the main melody!
Another issue to consider is that of variation. So you have a nice thematic idea, but how are you going to spread it out across an entire piece?
Bach's Inventions are a great place to look for this. He made these pieces primarily out of a one or two tiny melodic motifs! Yet by using contrapunctal techniques, he managed to develope them and build entire pieces!
So while you may not be interested in analysing all of Bach's Inventions and Fugues, it is still worth considering variation and development. You could look into your favorite filmscores and see how they have developed themes through out the entity of a film. Funnily enough, I find that the old Disney films are GREAT for this! Those guys were really amazing.
Orchestration, dynamics, modulation, tempo and rhythm, mode etc, are just a few ways to change a theme to fit a new mood. And that is without going into the deeper intricasies - contrapunctal inversion, melodic inversion etc, and all that stuff.
I have often found it useful to take a phrase from a piece, and see how many cool variations I can do with it. You will be truly AMAZED by how much you can do with a good theme!
TB
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- KVRAF
- 1975 posts since 4 Feb, 2005
Speaking of Disney and scoring, a great example is the new Pirates movie. You wouldn't notice it, but Davy Jones' theme for every scene is the same melody, AND it's the same melody he plays on the organ, AND it's the same melody his locket plays...
Theme and variation form can do a lot.
Theme and variation form can do a lot.
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- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
So much...
An easy intro into this might be to look at some Classical era sonata's. Mozart's are usually quite stomachable.
Or even better, you could take a look at some of Classical era chamber arrangements. That way you'll be able to learn a some voiceleading, a little orhestration AND some cool variation tricks.
One of my fave tricks is to transfer the main melody to another voice. So for instance, taking it from the treble (like a violin or trumpet) and putting it in the bass or tenor (a cello or trombone).
Actually, if we're talking about variation, then the Liszt Sonata has to get a mention. The entire piece is built around a couple of motifs that appear literally EVERYWHERE. At one point its a melody, then its a bassline, then its a voice in a fugue... the piece is just phenomenal!
Seriously, listen to this piece and you'll see just how much can be done.
TB
An easy intro into this might be to look at some Classical era sonata's. Mozart's are usually quite stomachable.
Or even better, you could take a look at some of Classical era chamber arrangements. That way you'll be able to learn a some voiceleading, a little orhestration AND some cool variation tricks.
One of my fave tricks is to transfer the main melody to another voice. So for instance, taking it from the treble (like a violin or trumpet) and putting it in the bass or tenor (a cello or trombone).
Actually, if we're talking about variation, then the Liszt Sonata has to get a mention. The entire piece is built around a couple of motifs that appear literally EVERYWHERE. At one point its a melody, then its a bassline, then its a voice in a fugue... the piece is just phenomenal!
Seriously, listen to this piece and you'll see just how much can be done.
TB
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 499 posts since 9 Oct, 2005
I appreciate the effort you put in illustrating the concept of voice leading, counterpoint, etc... Though I must admit my ear is not well tuned to classical stuff, with constant evolution, and I have a better grasp with more obvious patterns. That's why I find music film easier to analyze.
About the notion of movement between motifs and melodic parts moving on their own, in harmony, what I find great for example is the Asteroid Field cue by John Williams :
Here's a rendition someone did with samples (KHSO)
The original MIDI file for easier analysis.
What happens behind the main motif, and particularly so at 2:16 in the midi file, is very effective. Wouldn't be so magical and grandiose without these background phrases.
About the notion of movement between motifs and melodic parts moving on their own, in harmony, what I find great for example is the Asteroid Field cue by John Williams :
Here's a rendition someone did with samples (KHSO)
The original MIDI file for easier analysis.
What happens behind the main motif, and particularly so at 2:16 in the midi file, is very effective. Wouldn't be so magical and grandiose without these background phrases.