Question about scales

[rachmiel]

symmetry ... yummmmmmmm. :-)

[MadPsyance]

Also, if I know the notes in the scale...do the rules of making triad chords still apply for example I-VII with each note in the triad skipping a third or is there some other rule for non major scales?

Anyone?

[JumpingJackFlash]

Also, if I know the notes in the scale...do the rules of making triad chords still apply for example I-VII with each note in the triad skipping a third or is there some other rule for non major scales?

Triads mostly apply to major and minor scales. Chords labelled I-VII fulfil a hierarchic relationship which only exists when you stay in key. - For example, V-I, - this fulfils a certain function within the music, which is dependant on the notes involved (and their expected resolutions).

When you talk about music based on 'weird' scales, it is no longer helpful to think of harmony as triads, and labelling the chords I-VII.

You can still do it the same way if you want, but the harmonies won't work in the same way.

This is one of the reasons why a lot of 'atonal' music is based more on polyphony than homophony. - The parts are written horizontally, and the harmony is often a secondary consideration (but still a consideration). - After-all, dissonance is a relative term. Without established consonance (as provided by keys), there can be no dissonance.

Some systems have been developed to provide structure to 'atonal' music. The set theoretic techniques of people like Schoenberg and Webern is one such system. In it, groups of notes are labelled according to their intervallic content and these have different relationships to other groups of noted with different intervallic content. This provides a kind of hierarchy, not unlike the relationships with in a key. (Going into more detail is clearly beyond the scope of this post).

However, if you've read any of my other posts, you'll probably know I'm a strong believer of not running before you can walk. Ie, I would recommend fully getting to grips with tonal harmony before you venture elsewhere.

[MadPsyance]

Thanks jumpinjack!
So...how would I go about harmonizing the locrian mode? How do I find chords that work well in it?

[papatomany]

As for the initial question of "I've got this melody, what scale is it?" most of my stuff starts this way.

I use a program called scaleit, which gives a lot of possibilities, or I use the Keyboard Grimoire book, which has tons of scales. Neither of these resources require any music reading (which I'm pretty lousy at).

[JumpingJackFlash]

Thanks jumpinjack!
So...how would I go about harmonizing the locrian mode? How do I find chords that work well in it?

Well, you have many options. The farther you go from major/minor stuff the fewer rules there are to follow (generally).

Probably the best advice is just do what sounds good to you.

You could use triads: In the Locrian mode, chords II, V, and VI are major chords and should sound good. Chords III, IV and VII are minor, and should also sound good in moderation, and chord I is diminished, which may not always sound good.

However, remember what I said about triads; thinking in this way may work for you, but it may not be helpful in the long-term.

You have many other options; - invent your own chords, - anything goes really!
You could be like Hindersmith and use chords based on 4ths (or even 2nds).

A simple solution would be to harmonise as you would if it were a normal major scale (Ionian mode), and just change the key signature accordingly!
(Eg, you can write V-I in B major, but then change the key signature to C major - so the chords actually become IV-VII in C major). Often this can work well.

Just experiment and go with what you like.

[MookTek]

The chords for the Locrian mode are:
Cdim Db Ebm Fm Gb Ab Bbm Cdim
The problem with the Locrian mode is that the root chord is diminished, which makes the mode almost unusable (harmonically speaking).

I would recommend using the Dorian #4 scale (4th mode of the Harmonic Minor scale) for those notes:
Cm D Eb F#dim Gm Adim Bb+ Cm
That's one of my favorite scales.

[MadPsyance]

As for the initial question of "I've got this melody, what scale is it?" most of my stuff starts this way.

I use a program called scaleit, which gives a lot of possibilities, or I use the Keyboard Grimoire book, which has tons of scales. Neither of these resources require any music reading (which I'm pretty lousy at).

Well, I can't get scaleit to install in winxp for some reason..but that Grimoire book looks great!
Thanks for the replies!

[Gregjazz]

The problem with the Locrian mode is that the root chord is diminished, which makes the mode almost unusable (harmonically speaking).

I've heard classical musicians who insist that locrian isn't a mode due to its "unusability". They say that the root chord always wants to resolve to the two.

I think otherwise. Locrian is a very fun mode to jam it, and its flat fifth degree makes things interesting. I don't feel it wanting to resolve anywhere if you don't want it to.

[nuffink]

The problem with the Locrian mode is that the root chord is diminished, which makes the mode almost unusable (harmonically speaking).

I've heard classical musicians who insist that locrian isn't a mode due to its "unusability". They say that the root chord always wants to resolve to the two.

I think otherwise. Locrian is a very fun mode to jam it, and its flat fifth degree makes things interesting. I don't feel it wanting to resolve anywhere if you don't want it to.

Have you tried the Locrian#2 instead of the Locrian over Half Diminished chords? It's sweet.

[MookTek]

Have you tried the Locrian#2 instead of the Locrian over Half Diminished chords? It's sweet.

Yes. Very nice. Then again, I think all scales with a flat 5th are sweet.

[meeks]

symmetry ... yummmmmmmm.

I'm not seeing a difference with an augmented scale except interval starting point...which coincide with the modes of these scales anyway. Never thought of this and man is it easy on guitar.

[Gregjazz]

Have you tried the Locrian#2 instead of the Locrian over Half Diminished chords? It's sweet.

Yup. It's traditional Jazz theory to play Locrian #2 over half diminished chords and the altered scale (7th mode of melodic minor) over chords with both an altered 5th and 9th.

You can get some nice voicings for half diminished chords through Locrian #2, too.

[herodotus]

symmetry ... yummmmmmmm.

I'm not seeing a difference with an augmented scale except interval starting point...which coincide with the modes of these scales anyway. Never thought of this and man is it easy on guitar.

Yes.

It is actually sort of common in some heavy metal, believe it or not.

What rachmiel is referring to is that, unlike diatonic scales, the diminished scale is symmetrical within the octave. It has no 'natural' tonal center.

Also, there are really only three different transpositions of the diminished scale, after that you just cycle through the same three at different starting points.

[Toxikator]

Anyone suggesting that the Locrian "needs" to resolve has been brought up on Mozart and not Napalm Death.

Seriously, the Locrian is incredibly dark and cool sounding, the instability of the chord is NOT the same thing as the "unusability" of the mode.