Question about scales

[MookTek]

Mooktek, when you say, "5th mode of the Harmonic Minor scale"...does that mean you start on the fifth degree of a harmonic minor scale, like how "normal" modes are relative to degrees on the major scale? If, so many things may have just clicked in my head. Also, how would "Phrygian Dominant scale" be notated?

Exactly, you start on the 5th note of the Harmonic Minor scale. There are 3 basic scales: Major, Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor. Each of these scales has 7 modes:
Major

• Ionian
  Dorian
  Phrygian
  Lydian
  Mixolydian
  Aeolian
  Locrian

Harmonic Minor

• Harmonic Minor
  Locrian Natural 6
  Ionian #5
  Dorian #4
  Phrygian Dominant
  Lydian #2
  Locrian b4,bb7

Melodic Minor

• Melodic Minor
  Dorian b2
  Lydian #5
  Lydian Dominant
  Mixolydian b6
  Locrian Natural 2
  Altered Dominant

[mistertoast]

Replicants don't have scales.

[MadPsyance]

And does each mode start on the same degree of the list? Like is Dorian b2 start on the second degree of the melodic minor, the lydian #5 start on the third degree of the melodic minor, or let's say the Dorian #4 start on the 4th degree of the harmonic minor? If so..even more has clicked.
It's kinda funny, I got a beginners book on music theory a few weeks ago and it only mentioned the modes of the major scales and doesn't mention a thing about modes of minor scales...and most of the tunes I have written with no music theory knowledge seems to be in these minor mode scales.

Also, is there no modes for natural minor scales?

[MadPsyance]

Replicants don't have scales.

What's that mean?

[nuffink]

Also, is there no modes for natural minor scales?

They're the same as the modes of the major scale.

[MookTek]

The Natural Minor is just another name for the Aeolian mode of the Major scale. See chart above.

[MadPsyance]

Also, is there no modes for natural minor scales?

They're the same as the modes of the major scale.

Why? I don't get it.

[MadPsyance]

The Natural Minor is just another name for the Aeolian mode of the Major scale. See chart above.

ok, I get that part.

[nuffink]

Also, is there no modes for natural minor scales?

They're the same as the modes of the major scale.

Why? I don't get it.

A Natural Minor =

A Aolian
B Locrian
C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian

Same modes, different order.

[MadPsyance]

Ahhh..*click, click* in my brain..

[nuffink]

Ahhh..*click, click* in my brain..

This'll make it fizz.
There's no point in learning modes unless you're going to misuse them.

If you're only ever going to play diatonically you don't need to know the modes you're using. If you're playing in C Major the white notes are the white notes, that's all you need to know. The same logic applies to all the other keys and all the other scales. All you need to know in order to play diatonically is the notes of the scale.

Modes get interesting when you realise you can play any compatible mode over any compatible chord. You don't have to play the phrygian mode over the iii- chord and the aolian over the vi- you can play the dorian mode over both. Same chords, radically different melody and harmony.

[Toxikator]

You don't have to misuse modes to justify learning them.

I write in Phrygian more than any other mode, I don't just use it as a reference for what keys to play when on the iii chord of the major or V of the minor.

[nuffink]

You don't have to misuse modes to justify learning them.

I write in Phrygian more than any other mode, I don't just use it as a reference for what keys to play when on the iii chord of the major or V of the minor.

In which case you're the using Phrygian as a scale (albeit one without a leading tone) and the same thing applies. You only have to learn the scale you're playing in.
This is ok but limiting.

[MadPsyance]

Ahhh..*click, click* in my brain..

Modes get interesting when you realise you can play any compatible mode over any compatible chord. You don't have to play the phrygian mode over the iii- chord and the aolian over the vi- you can play the dorian mode over both. Same chords, radically different melody and harmony.

Can you explain what you mean by that? I understand that you play by what sounds right not what theory says is technically harmonious. But when you say "You don't have to play the phrygian mode over the iii- chord" do you simply mean just because iii chord of the phrygian mode exists it doesn't mean you have to use it...or do you mean something else...I'm kinda confused now.

[nuffink]

Ahhh..*click, click* in my brain..

Modes get interesting when you realise you can play any compatible mode over any compatible chord. You don't have to play the phrygian mode over the iii- chord and the aolian over the vi- you can play the dorian mode over both. Same chords, radically different melody and harmony.

Can you explain what you mean by that? I understand that you play by what sounds right not what theory says is technically harmonious. But when you say "You don't have to play the phrygian mode over the iii- chord" do you simply mean just because iii chord of the phrygian mode exists it doesn't mean you have to use it...or do you mean something else...I'm kinda confused now.

In the key of C.

If you play the D minor chord you would normaly (diatonically) play a melody over it in D Dorian.
If you play the E minor chord you would normaly (diatonically) play a melody over it in E Phrygian.
If you play the A minor chord you would normaly (diatonically) play a melody over it in A Aolian.
This is all just a complicated way of saying that you play just the seven white notes. There are no accidentals (out of key notes) in either the chords or the melody you play over them.

You can play it like this...
D minor chord. D Dorian melody.
E minor chord. E Dorian melody.
A minor chord. A Dorian melody.
The E Dorian and the A Dorian both contain accidentals but it still sounds great because the Dorian mode works over any minor chord.
Learning what modes work over what chords is the key to playing "out" and still sounding good.