Question about scales

[mistertoast]

Replicants don't have scales.

What's that mean?

And family photos? Replicants didn't have families either.

[MadPsyance]

Nuffink, you just made my head sizzle. I've said this before, but I'm quite new to music theory so I've never heard it described before that you play different modes over chord changes of a single key. But is this like your chord changes moving in parallel with your melodic movement? For example say you're playing in c major and you move to the ii chord which the root note is d, then you would have a melody with the same root, is that what is meant by moving parallel and is frowned upon by some?
I really dig the idea of playing dorian against minor chords though...is this technically out of key? I don't have a keyboard near me to hear how this sounds...must check this out later. where did you learn all these tricks?

[Toxikator]

In which case you're the using Phrygian as a scale (albeit one without a leading tone) and the same thing applies.

It doesn't become a scale just because you write in it. It is a mode (if you want to get technical, a transposed mode).

the only "scales" are major and minor, technically.

Anyway, I like your way of describing it better (where modality is a subset of the scale that you're in) but understand that it's technically incorrect so it might be confusing to people who are already versed in the subject

[nuffink]

Nuffink, you just made my head sizzle. I've said this before, but I'm quite new to music theory so I've never heard it described before that you play different modes over chord changes of a single key. But is this like your chord changes moving in parallel with your melodic movement? For example say you're playing in c major and you move to the ii chord which the root note is d, then you would have a melody with the same root, is that what is meant by moving parallel and is frowned upon by some?
I really dig the idea of playing dorian against minor chords though...is this technically out of key? I don't have a keyboard near me to hear how this sounds...must check this out later. where did you learn all these tricks?

Don't worry too much about parallel motion. That's to do with classical harmony and how the individual voices within a chord move. We're so used to music that ignores those rules nowadays that they seem like an arbitrary straitjacket.

As for the scales over chords thing. That's how modern theory works.

You pick a key, that determines the chords.
You decide which scales/modes to play over which chord types. That determines both the tensions available to extend the chord and what melody notes are played over that chord.

[nuffink]

In which case you're the using Phrygian as a scale (albeit one without a leading tone) and the same thing applies.

It doesn't become a scale just because you write in it. It is a mode (if you want to get technical, a transposed mode).

the only "scales" are major and minor, technically.

Anyway, I like your way of describing it better (where modality is a subset of the scale that you're in) but understand that it's technically incorrect so it might be confusing to people who are already versed in the subject

As usual you're almost right, and missing the point by a country mile.

[MadPsyance]

Yeah, I know that...but I had never heard of playing different modes over the chord changes of 1 particular scale(although if you're sticking to the notes within the scale you're still diatonically correct right?)..the basic theory books I've seen say,"harmonize your chord changes with notes in the scale" they don't go as far to say you're changing(incorporating?)different modes...I guess I have a lot to learn about related scales.

[nuffink]

Yeah, I know that...but I had never heard of playing different modes over the chord changes of 1 particular scale(although if you're sticking to the notes within the scale you're still diatonically correct right?)..the basic theory books I've seen say,"harmonize your chord changes with notes in the scale" they don't go as far to say you're changing(incorporating?)different modes...I guess I have a lot to learn about related scales.

Welcome to jazz.

You haven't got that much to learn. Here's a comprehensive list of what chords are available in each key and what scales/modes can be played over them http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2319210

And, if you don't mind a bit of advertising, there's a plugin with all that stuff gathered in one easy to use interface... click my sig.

[MadPsyance]

ha nuffink! honestly my newly sparked interest in theory has much to do with the original chordspace! (although i'm much to shy to come straight out and say so...)Thanks for the link too..I won't pretend I understand half of it, but I'll be able to wrap my head around it some day.

[Toxikator]

As usual you're almost right, and missing the point by a country mile.

The almost right part is fine by me.

I didn't miss the point at all. In fact, I think the association of the "modes" of a scale with their corresponding scale degrees is a better way to think about scales and modes than our current fashion.

I was just mentioning the technicalities that go hand in hand with it to defend my prior ignorance and to clear up what I would consider to be pretty confusing for people used to thinking about modality in the classical sense...

[nuffink]

As soon as you take a mode and build chords upon it (as you were doing when you talked about playing diatonic phrygian) you ignore it's specific tonic and it becomes a scale.

Here's what wiki has to say on the matter...

"Technically speaking, scales differ from modes in that scales do not have a primary or "tonic" pitch. Thus a single scale can have many different modes, depending on which of its notes is chosen as primary."

[Toxikator]

I've never heard that definition... how is that really true, though? The C Major scale and the A minor scale, for example, are only distinguished between by their tonic pitch.

Or is it suggesting that, unlike modes, which have a fixed note tonic, scales are transposable?

[nuffink]

Any bunch of notes is a scale if you treat it like a scale and build chords off it. It's a mode if it can be shown to be built from a specific degree of a scale. Thus the aolian mode is a mode unless you use it as a scale when it becomes the natural minor scale. The phrygian mode becomes the phrygian scale when you use it as a base for building chords.
As soon as you use a mode as a scale it generates its own modes.

[Toxikator]

I see, actually that makes perfect sense.

And so from that the use of "modes" as opposed to "scales" is relegated to the kinds of patterns you play in relation to the current scale? (as in, using the Dorian mode for the ii chord implies the modifications from the current scale)

It was sort of confusing to see it phrased as "scales have no Tonic note", though

[nuffink]

It was sort of confusing to see it phrased as "scales have no Tonic note", though

That's because, as you said, modes aren't transposable (within a scale). They do have an absolute tonic. D Dorian exists within the C Major scale, E Dorian doesn't.

[Toxikator]

...okay... but how does that relate to the tonic? In other words, A minor exists within the C major scale, but G minor doesn't... but that's not modes...?

When do we classify something as a mode again?