Im ConfuseD!! Chords identification

[EkleipSiS]

Ok im learning slowly the rudiments of music theory...but im always falling on something not very clear...
heres the last confusion...
what is the chord D major in the key of D...
in piano chord helper the say: D,A,D,F#
on a web site they say : D,D,F#,A
in chord space : D,F#,A,C#
edit---ok i think the first two is adding a root bass note to the chords so that makes them a 3 note chords..

???
are they all D major? if so how can i notate them differently?
and is a chord have 3 or 4 notes?
how can i know that D major has 3 or 4 notes?
im confused and its just the basics...well...hope this will become clearer...

thanks..

[sonarman]

Any variation on D, F#, A is fine. These variations are called inversions.
The one with the C# is a D major 7.

A basic chord is defined by 3 notes (a triad). You can add extra notes to it to change it's feel.
I agree. It is very confusing. Don't let it stop you from enjoying music though.

[Caleb]

Chord Space tends to use jazz chords which are mostly 7th chords - hence the C#.

I believe these will be written with a bass note (played in left hand on keyboard) as you've assumed.

With the Chord Space example, it is common in jazz chords not to play the root note in the right hand when you are playing the root note in the bass. That is why you don't see another D being played.

So for the other two in the right hand you have A, D, F# and D, F#, A.
These are the same chords in different inversions.

Inversions are basically the same chord but played starting at a different point in the triad. For D this means.....

1st Inversion: D, F#, A
2nd Inversion: F#, A, D
3rd Inversion: A, D, F#

Although they are exactly the same chord, changing around inversions of a chord does produce a different effect - the chord actually sounds a little different.

Regards
Caleb

[EkleipSiS]

Any variation on D, F#, A is fine. These variations are called inversions.
The one with the C# is a D major 7.

A basic chord is defined by 3 notes (a triad). You can add extra notes to it to change it's feel.
I agree. It is very confusing. Don't let it stop you from enjoying music though.

Ok thanks...so this is all because of inversions...hmm...so they dont say it when its an inversion?

going back studying....

[EkleipSiS]

1st Inversion: D, F#, A
2nd Inversion: F#, A, D
3rd Inversion: A, F# D
Caleb

shouldnt the third one be: A,D,F#??

and i think we also can do a "negative inversion"....so the highest note in the chord becomes the lowest...

[Caleb]

Typo alert - have corrected that.

Regards
Caleb

[wrench45us]

Root position: The root note is in the bass, and above that are the third and the fifth. In the first scale degree this is marked 'I'
First inversion: The third is in the bass, and above it are the fifth and the root. This creates an interval of a sixth and a third above the bass note, and so is marked in figured Roman notation as '6/3'. This is commonly abbreviated to '6' (or 'Ib') since the sixth is the characteristic interval of the inversion, and so always implies '6/3'.
Second inversion: The fifth is in the bass, and above it are the root and the third. This creates an interval of a sixth and a fourth above the bass note, and so is marked as '6/4' or 'Ic'. Second inversion is the most unstable chord position.

from wikipedia

the post above that calls out the root position as 1st inversion is in error -- root position is no inversion at all

2nd inversion is usually the most useful for smooth voice leading from I or ii (root positions) to/from IV or V (2nd inversions)

[fmr]

Chord Space tends to use jazz chords which are mostly 7th chords - hence the C#.

I believe these will be written with a bass note (played in left hand on keyboard) as you've assumed.

So for the other two in the right hand you have A, D, F# and D, F#, A.
These are the same chords in different inversions.

Inversions are basically the same chord but played starting at a different point in the triad. For D this means.....

1st Inversion: D, F#, A
2nd Inversion: F#, A, D
3rd Inversion: A, D, F#

Although they are exactly the same chord, changing around inversions of a chord does produce a different effect - the chord actually sounds a little different.

Regards
Caleb

Actually, the positions are fundamental (when tha bass is the root note), 1st inversion (when the bass is the chord third), and 2nd inversion (when the bass is the chord fifth). The position of the other notes don't alter this, although they can make the chords to sound very different.

Regarding the D Maj 7 (C# added) this is typically a jazzy approach (they even add a ninth sometimes), and not very used in other types of music. Anyway, functional harmony (harmony of functions), don't use this chord in a D context, except if the are preparing a modulation.

Harmony (and chords are harmony) changes a lot depending on the context you use it.

[Toxikator]

shouldnt the third one be: A,D,F#??

Not at all

It is a common mistake to overcomplicate the nature of inversions:

An inversion's ORDER (root, first, second, third, etc.) is determined by the note in the BASS.

For C major, if the C is the lowest note it is in root position. If the E is the lowest note it is in first inversion. If the G is the lowest note it is in second inversion. (and so on for 7ths, 9nths, etc.)

The rest of the notes really don't matter. Now, for the purposes of voice leading and chord voicing they DO matter, which is why there's figured bass forms for chords: you mark by inversion intervals.

C5/3 (imagine the 5 as a superscript and the 3 as a subscript) is the technical way of notating the chord "CEG" in one octave in that order. You note by interval degrees. So the CMajor chord GEC would be G11/6 (the distance between G and E is a 6th, the distance between G and C is an eleventh).

Of course, in most books these are shortened to C, C(6), and C(6/4) for the three inversions, based on their most common voicings (and these are the most useful ones for harmonic analysis). These voicings are technically INCORRECT, however, because a C 6/4 in extended figured bass form would actually be an F chord, but when analyzing just writing "I6/4" is sufficient to indicate that the note in the bass is actually G. However, extended notation is legitimate.

An alternative to the C, C(6), C(6/4) method is the jazz method of labeling C/E and C/G (but, as with the shortened figured bass, does not aid in describing the actual intervals that build the chord.)

[me109]

Perhaps to simplify it even further, if you assign a number to each of the notes in a major scale (1-8),you can create the simplest chord, C Maj, by using the 1, 3 & 5 - C,E,G. Or in the case of D Major, D,F#,A.

Going back to C, if you play the chord with the E in the bass and the C on top, E,G,C, you've just inverted the chord. Using the numbers, it's now, from the bottom up, 3,5,1. If you do it again, you wind up with G,C,E or 5,1,3.
My mom used to play the organ with the "Pointer System" books that taught everybody this last inversion. You could point the index finger to the #1, (root, tonic), or C in the case of a C chord, and your #5 finger and thumb of the left hand would naturally fall on the lower G and upper E, completing the chord.

Eventually you could learn other inversions, such as the F Maj. chord with the 3rd on the bottom, A,C,F. This was easy to change to from the C major, because your pointer finger stayed on the C the whole time.

By the way, all the chords from these examples are called triads because they just use 3 notes. When you add other notes such as 7th's and 9th's, you can extend the numbers you assigned to the scale and have a pretty good idea of what the additional notes are that are referred to in the chord name.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Ok im learning slowly the rudiments of music theory...but im always falling on something not very clear...

See my Introduction to Music Theory, particularly the last sections on 'Chords' and 'Chord Inversions'. This should help you.

[wrench45us]

3rd on the bottom can be strong and sometimes threaten to overwhelm the root
otoh I've read that 3rd in the bottom is best for walking the bass around
5th in the bass is generally relatively the weakest or least stable (leaning most towards resolution)

these are things I have read that have stuck with me
hoping that someday I might see/hear what they're talking about

[Toxikator]

Inversion is very important and often not considered. Not just which note is at the bottom but also which tones are doubled (for example, if you are in second inversion, doubling the bass note/5th is going to make the chord VERY unstable) and the actual voicing of the chord (is it CEG? CGE? That space makes an awful lot of tonal difference for a root position tonic chord).

Apart from the general inversion guidelines from Species Counterpoint I'm not too clear on them myself, I usually just utilize inversions to make the movement as small as possible. But there are times when this is undesired; stepwise chords, for example, or descending bass, or "grand" open voicing.

[nuffink]

edit: Talkin bullshit I'll start again

[fmr]

Inversions are a bit of a hangover from pre 20th century theory. Inversion only really makes sense with triads. Any order of three notes can be fully described using inversion. This isn't the case once you start using 4 or more notes.
Take the example of a C major triad
C, E, G Normal Form
E, G, C 1st Inversion
G, E, C 2nd Inversion
That's it. Every possible order catered for.

Now lets look at C Major 7
C, E, G, B Normal Form
E, G, B, C 1st Inversion
G, B, C, E 2nd Inversion
B, C, E, G 3rd Inversion
But what about
C, E, B, G
C, B, G, E
G, C, E, B etc
These (and all the other missing combinations) are all equally valid but aren't considered inversions.
They're voicings. Inversions are just a special case.

Learn about voicings not inversions.

Voicing is the way you fill your chord (AFAIK). That's nothing to do with inversions. Inversions are defined by the note that is place in the bass. That's it. A seventh chord with the seventh in the bass will always be the third onversion, no matter what notes you fill it with. Problem here is that, when jazz came up, jazz players started to use chords in different ways, and no longer treated as chords "strictu sensu" (as in structural harmony) - added sevenths, added ninths, fourths in place of thirds, etc.

That's the way i see it, anyway.