Yes, what about music theory

[BosseJo]

I've read some of the postings about theory here the last weeks and I can't keep silent anymore. There is so much missleading info a lot a people must totally confused by now. I mean where do you get all this from? Such as: minor can't be harmonized but major can? The A natural minor scale is the same as the C major scale? Melodic and harmonic don't have modes? Melodic minor is not a minor scale??? Scales always has X number of notes??? 1st Inversion=root position? Inversion not a voicing? Every chord you could imagine played on any instrument is voiced. Some of them are played more often than others so they have their own names. Period.

Modes, modes, modes I don't know if I dare to go near them....I think modes is probably one the most confusing things in music theory and also not that interesting when it comes to actually play. I think some metal and fusion guitarist are to blame here, going up and down the fretboard thinking: Oh now I playing in the dorian mode! Then they want to teach us all about it. Joe Pass once said this at a clinic:

"don't ask me anything about modes 'cos I know nothing about that stuff"

If he did not know why should we? If you REALLY want to know about modes you in for some heavy reading and I suggest you play instead.

To get things really going theory wise - what about the blues? Should it be outlawed?

Be also aware of the fact the music theorist (terrorists?) do not always agree. Don't trust everything as facts just because it's on the net.

Theroy has it's place but do yourself a favor and download this free program - the functional ear trainer at:
http://www.miles.be/
Pick the basic version. The advanced it's not better, on the contrary even if already have good ears.

It does more for your music than any theory ever can. If you choose between doing some ear training or some reading about theory, pick ear training. If you can't hear it there's no point reading about it. I don't know if people will hate me for posting this, if so I will not post here again, no hard feelings from my side (and hopefully not too much of that from yours), but if someone is interested I can give some advice about ear training and also some pointers how to use theory as an aid to ear training.

PS. If someone tells you that your music theoretically wrong, look real smart and say : "Well it's an interupted cadence!" and then put on some Zappa;)

[Barf]

(awaiting reply from The Toxikator)

[Toxikator]

I've read some of the postings about theory here the last weeks and I can't keep silent anymore. There is so much missleading info a lot a people must totally confused by now. I mean where do you get all this from? Such as: minor can't be harmonized but major can? The A natural minor scale is the same as the C major scale? Melodic and harmonic don't have modes? Melodic minor is not a minor scale??? Scales always has X number of notes??? 1st Inversion=root position? Inversion not a voicing? Every chord you could imagine played on any instrument is voiced. Some of them are played more often than others so they have their own names. Period.

Well. We've established your ability to half-quote the questions of the confused and transform them into the answers of the educated.

Modes, modes, modes I don't know if I dare to go near them....I think modes is probably one the most confusing things in music theory and also not that interesting when it comes to actually play.

And with an attitude like that, who wouldn't consider you a worthy source on the subject?

I think some metal and fusion guitarist are to blame here, going up and down the fretboard thinking: Oh now I playing in the dorian mode! Then they want to teach us all about it. Joe Pass once said this at a clinic:

"don't ask me anything about modes 'cos I know nothing about that stuff"

If he did not know why should we? If you REALLY want to know about modes you in for some heavy reading and I suggest you play instead.

Yeah, and chords too. I never liked chords. Who has time for chords? Nobody, that's who. f**k chords. I bet Liam Howlett doesn't use chords. If he doesn't know about chords why should you? You gotta study to learn chords, and studying is hard. So don't bother learning chords, just play your instrument. I find whacking it with my balls is a good alternative to learning how to use it... Chords are overrated brainiac crap, I say, who needs 'em!

To get things really going theory wise - what about the blues? Should it be outlawed?

No. It should be studied. Where in the name of Christ unholy did you pull that from? "You wanna really talk about theory? Let's talk about notes. Your precious theory can't do anything about that! So what, we outlaw notes? Just because Music Theory can't explain notes doesn't mean you don't use them."

Be also aware of the fact the music theorist (terrorists?) do not always agree. Don't trust everything as facts just because it's on the net.

I suppose everyone should start with this excuse for a lesson. Because, you know, once you compare "theorists" and "terrorists", you've pretty much lost the right to talk.

Theroy (sic) has it's place but do yourself a favor and download this free program - the functional ear trainer at:
http://www.miles.be/
Pick the basic version. The advanced it's not better, on the contrary even if already have good ears.

It does more for your music than any theory ever can. If you choose between doing some ear training or some reading about theory, pick ear training.

And, God willing, we might one day end up like you! Ignorant of our craft, confused by something as introductory as "modes", and completely oblivious to the value of education.

I'm gonna just stop here.

EDIT: Just saw this after hitting "submit"

(awaiting reply from The Toxikator)

[Rock]

Ear training is a part of music theory. And there are things I learned reading music theory books I would have never learned by simply listening, namely some of the insights gained by musical minds much greater than mine. All of the items of confusion you mentioned here are pretty elementary, it really gets much more interesting when you get beyond the basics. The difference is akin to knowing the basic parts of the body (mouth, stomach, teeth) vs. having a real understanding of how digestion works.

[Caleb]

1st Inversion=root position?

That one was me I think.

I didn't realise I'd made the mistake until someone sent me an email.
I do usually know what a 1st inversion is but when I was writing that post I obviously wasn't concentrating.

However, another error was made by me in the same post when I basically removed the bass note altogether when working out if a triad was an inversion of a chord.

This error was made because I learned inversions on a piano keyboard where they were explained with just the right hand. This somehow led me to believe I could somehow isolate the right hand when discussing the concept - which is pretty stupid when I look at it now. DUH!

The more I see people discuss music theory here, the more I realise my education in music theory and hence my understanding of it is pretty ordinary.

Regards
Caleb

[MotorMind]

I've read some of the postings about theory here the last weeks and I can't keep silent anymore. There is so much missleading info a lot a people must totally confused by now. I mean where do you get all this from? Such as: minor can't be harmonized but major can? The A natural minor scale is the same as the C major scale? Melodic and harmonic don't have modes? Melodic minor is not a minor scale??? Scales always has X number of notes??? 1st Inversion=root position? Inversion not a voicing? Every chord you could imagine played on any instrument is voiced. Some of them are played more often than others so they have their own names. Period.

Modes, modes, modes I don't know if I dare to go near them....I think modes is probably one the most confusing things in music theory and also not that interesting when it comes to actually play. I think some metal and fusion guitarist are to blame here, going up and down the fretboard thinking: Oh now I playing in the dorian mode! Then they want to teach us all about it. Joe Pass once said this at a clinic:

"don't ask me anything about modes 'cos I know nothing about that stuff"

If Joe Pass ever said that, he was obviously joking, since he was a teacher as well. He surely knew about modes, but likely didn't think about them when playing. That's experience for you.

Anyway, one should be very weary about appeals to authority like these. Authorities can be wrong, you know, even when they're talented musicians like Mr. Pass.

If he did not know why should we? If you REALLY want to know about modes you in for some heavy reading and I suggest you play instead.

Modes are nothing but different positions on the same scale. Any moderately intelligent person can learn most of the stuff in a matter of two weeks.

To get things really going theory wise - what about the blues? Should it be outlawed?

There's also theory involved in blues, since they play around with a circle of unresolved tensions.

Be also aware of the fact the music theorist (terrorists?) do not always agree. Don't trust everything as facts just because it's on the net.

Indeed, follow a course or at least buy some proper books.

Theroy has it's place but do yourself a favor and download this free program - the functional ear trainer at:
http://www.miles.be/
Pick the basic version. The advanced it's not better, on the contrary even if already have good ears.

It does more for your music than any theory ever can. If you choose between doing some ear training or some reading about theory, pick ear training. If you can't hear it there's no point reading about it. I don't know if people will hate me for posting this, if so I will not post here again, no hard feelings from my side (and hopefully not too much of that from yours), but if someone is interested I can give some advice about ear training and also some pointers how to use theory as an aid to ear training.

You're presenting a false dichotomy here. Knowledge of theory doesn't preclude training your hearing. You can do both.

I am highly doubtful about the efficiency of ear training though. It may work to sharpen the hearing of talented people, but people who lack good ears from the get go won't benefit much from it.

If someone tells you that your music theoretically wrong, look real smart and say : "Well it's an interupted cadence!" and then put on some Zappa;)

Something can be "theoratically wrong" but still sound good, so this is another false dichotomy. Zappa's work isn't always theoretically sound either, so his music might not be such a good example Some theoretical knowledge can be a lot of help, especially wen I hear how a lot of people struggle with basic melody and harmony in their tracks.

[advaya]

I am highly doubtful about the efficiency of ear training though. It may work to sharpen the hearing of talented people, but people who lack good ears from the get go won't benefit much from it.

Heh... I was thinking the same thing.

It's kinda like saying, 'Screw learning about computer languages and syntax. If you want to be a better programmer, get glasses.'

[dsp music]

'Screw learning about computer languages and syntax. If you want to be a better programmer, get glasses.'

nice one advaya

[BosseJo]

Modes, modes, modes I don't know if I dare to go near them....I think modes is probably one the most confusing things in music theory and also not that interesting when it comes to actually play.And with an attitude like that, who wouldn't consider you a worthy source on the subject?

Nobody that's my point. I teach this stuff everyday having conversations with other teachers (and they this shit believe me better than you and me combined times 10) some of them have studied music at the most advanced level there is (compared to my meagre four years at the music academy/university) at some of the best music schools in Europe (Konservatorium Prag is one of them). But what do they know.

Yeah, and chords too. I never liked chords. Who has time for chords? Nobody, that's who. f**k chords. I bet Liam Howlett doesn't use chords. If he doesn't know about chords why should you? You gotta study to learn chords, and studying is hard. So don't bother learning chords, just play your instrument. I find whacking it with my balls is a good alternative to learning how to use it... Chords are overrated brainiac crap, I say, who needs 'em!

What the...? How far would you stretch this silly comparsion?

To get things really going theory wise - what about the blues? Should it be outlawed?

]No. It should be studied. Where in the name of Christ unholy did you pull that from? "You wanna really talk about theory? Let's talk about notes. Your precious theory can't do anything about that! So what, we outlaw notes? Just because Music Theory can't explain notes doesn't mean you don't use them."

Now I really don't know what you are talking about. But for example the minor/major duality is quite cloudy theory wise don't you think?

I suppose everyone should start with this excuse for a lesson. Because, you know, once you compare "theorists" and "terrorists", you've pretty much lost the right to talk.

Ok, terrorists part was meant to be joke. Sorry about that.

And, God willing, we might one day end up like you! Ignorant of our craft, confused by something as introductory as "modes", and completely oblivious to the value of education.

I'm gonna just stop here.

I did not say that I was confused goddamit.

[nuffink]

I teach this stuff everyday

So how about positive contributions rather than general "you're all wrong" posts?

[BosseJo]

Ear training is a part of music theory. And there are things I learned reading music theory books I would have never learned by simply listening, namely some of the insights gained by musical minds much greater than mine. All of the items of confusion you mentioned here are pretty elementary, it really gets much more interesting when you get beyond the basics. The difference is akin to knowing the basic parts of the body (mouth, stomach, teeth) vs. having a real understanding of how digestion works.

I have NEVER said that one should not study theory. It's just that I meet so many talented young people who all of a sudden loose confidence just because they have difficulties understanding some rather unimportant part of music theory. A seventeen year old girl told me that she probably was not talented enough in music because she had difficulties understanding the difference between "dominant 2" and the third inversion! The thing is that she is so bloody talented it's almost scary!

[BosseJo]

I teach this stuff everyday

So how about positive contributions rather than general "you're all wrong" posts?

Did you read my original post (to the end)?

[BosseJo]

1st Inversion=root position?

That one was me I think.

I didn't realise I'd made the mistake until someone sent me an email.
I do usually know what a 1st inversion is but when I was writing that post I obviously wasn't concentrating.

However, another error was made by me in the same post when I basically removed the bass note altogether when working out if a triad was an inversion of a chord.

This error was made because I learned inversions on a piano keyboard where they were explained with just the right hand. This somehow led me to believe I could somehow isolate the right hand when discussing the concept - which is pretty stupid when I look at it now. DUH!

The more I see people discuss music theory here, the more I realise my education in music theory and hence my understanding of it is pretty ordinary.

Regards
Caleb

I am sorry about that Caleb, I truly am. I did not mean to pick on anybody.

[BosseJo]

If Joe Pass ever said that, he was obviously joking, since he was a teacher as well. He surely knew about modes, but likely didn't think about them when playing. That's experience for you.

Oh no, fifteen years of studying, reading and learing his solos etc down the drain. He was JOKING!!! That bastard. Now you know what a few years in jail can do to even a man like Joe Pass.

Anyway, one should be very weary about appeals to authority like these. Authorities can be wrong, you know, even when they're talented musicians like Mr. Pass.

So authorities can be wrong. Interesting.

Modes are nothing but different positions on the same scale. Any moderately intelligent person can learn most of the stuff in a matter of two weeks.

If you say so. And you just proved my point, but nevermind.

Indeed, follow a course or at least buy some proper books.

Nah I had my share of courses thank you very much I have music books everywhere, under my bed, in bags, a few under my couch so I think I am well covered. But maybe I should read also (a joke...yea I am probably not that funny sorry sorry. And I do read them belivie or not.) Here's a really good one BTW:
The New guide to Harmony by Conrad Cork. It's mostly about jazz though.

Theroy has it's place but do yourself a favor and download this free program - the functional ear trainer at:
http://www.miles.be/
Pick the basic version. The advanced it's not better, on the contrary even if already have good ears.

It does more for your music than any theory ever can. If you choose between doing some ear training or some reading about theory, pick ear training. If you can't hear it there's no point reading about it. I don't know if people will hate me for posting this, if so I will not post here again, no hard feelings from my side (and hopefully not too much of that from yours), but if someone is interested I can give some advice about ear training and also some pointers how to use theory as an aid to ear training.

You're presenting a false dichotomy here. Knowledge of theory doesn't preclude training your hearing.

I never said that. Did you really read what I read? Or did you read someone else's interpretation?

You can do both.

Of course. But ear training gives you a lot more and is much more important.

I am highly doubtful about the efficiency of ear training though. It may work to sharpen the hearing of talented people, but people who lack good ears from the get go won't benefit much from it.

Sorry but you can't be more wrong. It can be frustrating sometimes but everyone can learn if they work on it.

Something can be "theoratically wrong" but still sound good, so this is another false dichotomy. Zappa's work isn't always theoretically sound either, so his music might not be such a good example Some theoretical knowledge can be a lot of help, especially wen I hear how a lot of people struggle with basic melody and harmony in their tracks.

Which is why hearing is much more important than theory.

[MotorMind]

If Joe Pass ever said that, he was obviously joking, since he was a teacher as well.

Oh no, fifteen years of studying, reading and learing his solos etc down the drain. He was JOKING!!! That bastard. Now you know what a few years in jail can do to even a man like Joe Pass.

Joe Pass was quite the joker, really. I attented a seminar of him once and spent most of the time laughing. I did learn about voicings too, though

Anyway, one should be very weary about appeals to authority like these. Authorities can be wrong, you know, even when they're talented musicians like Mr. Pass.

So authorities can be wrong. Interesting.

Indeed, there are no authorities. At most there are experts