KVR Audio

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:30 pm

I'll have a blast at this. Let me see what I can come up with...

TB

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:53 pm

Sorry, does anyone have a copy of the score? I cant seem to find it. But piano score would do, but the full score would be best.

Im pretty sure I can get to bottom of this one.

TB

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:03 pm

tee boy wrote:Sorry, does anyone have a copy of the score? I cant seem to find it. But piano score would do, but the full score would be best.

www.music-scores.com has it for members (which I'm not) and there are several midi files on the net. Doesn't your host / score editor convert that to notation?

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:57 am

BertKoor wrote:Doesn't your host / score editor convert that to notation?

Oh yeah, but some times you have to wonder about how authentic these midi's are. Iv had some that have been a mess.

I'll have a look though, see if I can find the full score.

Im going to have a look at this now.

TB

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:50 am

You know what, its that second chord which is the really interesting thing about this piece.

If you ignore that back and forth between this chromatic chord, then the first part of the A section is just:

i, iv
i, IV

The second time with it begin borrowed from the major mode.

The mystery chord is ALMOST a French sixth. If the F were natural, then that would be our man. As it is, I can only interpret it as a V/Vd or B7 (with the A pedal representing the 7th of the chord).The fact that it doesnt resolve properly and being in this extreme position would explain why it gives such ambiguity to the tonality of the music.

Maybe it would be better to consider it an augmented sixth on the supertonic (rather than the flattened supertonic, as is typical)?

I havent done the next few bars yet, but its clear that you have a series of brief modulations (or tonicizations) facilitated by secondary dominants (or perhaps a substitute here and there). This section should be easy to analyse functionally. I'll do it when I get a spare moment later on.

Then there is also that transition which is highly reminicent of the earlier romantics - both Chopin and Liszt used that type of transitional material HEAVILY. Just listen to Chopin's Op10 No3... sounds exactly like it. Im not sure you can give this type of material a functional analysis, as it is just a diminished chord descending chromatically over an E pedal. Its a special effect. The chord is broken into tritones, giving it that seriously dissonant sound.

Thats you A section pretty much. It repeats, then goes into a B sec which is just like a brief development. I'll have alook at that later aswell.

But imo, the two real points of interest (harmonically speaking) are the dissonant transitions (cliche as they are) and ofcourse, the chromatic chord which totally destablized the tonality at the beginning of the phrase. This gives the music that mysterious feel.

Its a cool piece. Saint Saen wrote some amazing music. His Danse Macabre is another really famous one. Liszt transcribed it for piano actually, and thats a mental piece!

I must admit, this work though reminds me ALOT of Grieg's equally famous Op46.

Will reply later when Iv had a chance to do the rest.

TB

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:34 am

Here is something interesting.

An extract from Liszt Lieberstraum. In this little transition, Liszt uses the same chords (different pitch classes though) as the start of this Saint Saen movement - (i, II)! Liszt uses (Dbm, Eb) while Saint Saen uses (Am, B). Both have highly myterious musical effects, yet the figurations are completely different:

http://download.yousendit.com/E7EFB2DA65767B71

Only semi relevant, but I thought you might be interested. It is these little tricks that become cliches of these styles. Knowing where they came from and how they work is so useful imo.

TB

cheul · Post by **cheul** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:09 am

Well I find this pretty relevant. Thanks tee boy, that's the kind of knowledge I'm looking for, understanding what gives a particular effect in order to inject it to previous techniques I learned and develop my own style.

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:55 am

so i-II? Strikingly similar to the Neapolitan chord... I wonder if there's some sort of name for it (that I might read up on it further).

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:13 am

Toxikator wrote:so i-II? Strikingly similar to the Neapolitan chord... I wonder if there's some sort of name for it (that I might read up on it further).

Yeah, thats what I was searching for. I was sure it was some kind of augmented sixth chord, but I couldnt find a match. The closest was the French sixth.

But without finding a match, I would go with the V/Vd analysis. It is a B7 afterall, with the A pedal putting it in 3rd inversion.

Im going to go have another mooch. I have this feeling in my gut that Im missing something very obvious here, lol.

TB

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:16 pm

Toxikator wrote:so i-II? Strikingly similar to the Neapolitan chord... I wonder if there's some sort of name for it (that I might read up on it further).

The Neapolitan (Sixth) would be the major chord of the flattened supertonic (in 1st inversion). So, i-bIIb.

With i-II, I would just call it a secondary dominant: V or V. (Using the harmonic minor).
It is also known as a 'Supertonic Chromatic Triad' (for obvious reasons), and in classical tonal harmony is usually followed by Ic or V7.

aaastronomer · Post by **aaastronomer** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:32 am

vurt wrote:
cheul wrote:So who will do us the honour of analyzing this piece ?

hmmm, im not sure what kind of analsysis people are after, i mean, the track is available for anyone to listen to, the sheet music is there, you either understand whats happening or you dont. if you can explain which bits you do not understand its easier to know where to start...

i think they might want to know why "it's so spooky and serene at the same time." musical theory doesn't seem up to the task. that why you get: "you either understand whats happening or you dont."

i do like tee boy's text though. but when i play just the chords and pause to listen to the difference between two chords, there's no "spooky and serene" (of course). it's like analyzing film frame by frame. you see technique (maybe), but no cinema. (well, perhaps: see no ma!)

Adaerus · Post by **Adaerus** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:01 pm

The first two chords are the iv and V7 chords of E harmonic minor. In tonal systems after V7 you'd have to have a I. But in this case the I (the tonic) never appears which is what chromaticism is all about. All notes have the same importance and are not bound by the rules guverning the gravity around a single sound (I).

edit: changed the typo vi to iv.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:46 pm

Adaerus wrote:In tonal systems after V7 you'd have to have a I.

Not always. V7-vi is a good interrupted cadence, and V7-IV (with the 7th remaining stationary) is also not uncommon.

Adaerus · Post by **Adaerus** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:05 pm

JumpingJackFlash wrote:
Adaerus wrote:In tonal systems after V7 you'd have to have a I.
Not always. V7-vi is a good interrupted cadence, and V7-IV (with the 7th remaining stationary) is also not uncommon.

That is right but I was talking of V7 as function of Dominant and the final cadece V-I is always a tonality establisher. You can have a M7 chord on any other step by cromatic modulation but if it doesn't resolve to I of the new tonality it doesn't establish the new tonality.

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:18 pm

Adaerus: There is no vi in a harmonic minor mode.

The Aquarium (analysis help)?