Many of us - myself included - have been grousing about how the music software industry has forgotten what a sampler is. As someone correctly pointed out on this very forum, devices (whether hardware or software) that do not digitize audio are not samplers, at least not in strict sense of the word (e.g. dictionary definition of "sampler").
While this is all quite true and I concur with the overall premise, I'm more interested in finding a way around this problem than trying to hold manufacturers accountable.
Whither "drag n' drop". Let's face it. Even though the music software industry is scamming customers with these "samplers that can't sample", things wouldn't be so bad if these stupid things at least supported meaningful drag n' drop.
And so the question: Drag n' drop - In your experience, what works with what? What have you been able to do with drag n' drop between (say) sample editors and "soft-samplers"? Can you drag n' drop samples from WaveLab to Kontakt, or...
Please discuss.
Drag n' Drop and the non-sampling "Samplers"
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- KVRist
- 174 posts since 25 Apr, 2006
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- KVRer
- 17 posts since 27 Sep, 2004
Lordvader,lordvader48 wrote: As someone correctly pointed out on this very forum, devices (whether hardware or software) that do not digitize audio are not samplers, at least not in strict sense of the word (e.g. dictionary definition of "sampler").
Garritan sees "drag and drop" to be an important feature in
making for an "intuitive" work space.
Kontakt 2 gets better all the time, now accepting SFZ as well as most file formats.
Still though...I'm puzzled by your problem with so-called
"samplers that don't sample"... Are you saying there are actual people out there that bought, say, Kontakt 2--and after a few hours went "WHAAAT?? I CAN'T ACTUALLY SAMPLE?"
....seriously?
You say: "Let's face it. Even though the music software
industry is scamming customers with these "samplers that can't
sample (...)"
I take the definition of a "scam" to mean that actual real
live people get taken in by purchasing something under false
pretenses. With all the literature and reviews and whatnot
available to consumers--it would literally take someone crawling out from under a rock and forking out big bucks for a "virtual (non-sampling) sampler" Someone whose last purchase was, say, an AKAI 612 Sampler, back in '87, then they went into a coma for 20 years. Sure it happens, but c'mon....
This wouldn't be your sour grapes, would it? (ie...did YOU buy a "non-sampling-sampler") ?? ....or perhaps do you actually KNOW someone who made such an uniformed purchase?
Meanings of words change over time--they're constantly fluxing; many, many factors go into a words meaning, and fortunately most people stay "up to speed"..."Current usage" of the word "sampler" certainly INCLUDES "sound library players"....simply by the fact that there are a majority of us and them "using" the term thusly...is it inaccurate and sloppy? yes...But I don't think it's as big of a deal as you, honestly.
I think "sampler" is simply an easier soundbyte than, say,
"Sound Library Player"...and I and (I'm sure) a great majority of people who fork out serious bucks know what they are buying before they do so.
Mike
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 174 posts since 25 Apr, 2006
Well, it's a little of both really. I have inadvertently wound up owning a number of these things (soft non-samplers), and while I assume full responsibility for my own error(s) in judgment, I discovered once I took a closer look at what made those purchases happen that the marketing language from the vendors of these things is part of the problem.
A lot of it is just "Who woulda thunk" type stuff. Sure, I probably realized that Independence didn't sample when I bought it, even though it's sold as a "sampler". I thought that even if it couldn't sample, *at least* it would surely be able to do host drag-and-drop of samples to/from a VST host, right?
Wrong. And there are so many others just like Independence (Kontakt, Intakt, ...) So I don't get your argument, really. How can these manufacturers sell these non-samplers as "samplers", without even providing the ability to meaningfully drag-and-drop samples? This seems to me to be unfair to customers. I certainly expected when I bought (for example) Independence and Kontakt that I would be able to find *some way* that made some sense to incorporate them in my music production workflow. Instead, I'm treated to that frustrating sound we all know so well - the hollow, echoey sound of the empty wallet. And I'm still looking for the sampling solution these products claimed to provide.
My KVR reviews of the non-samplers stemmed from this frustration. I wrote those reviews in hopes that I might be able to help a few people avoid making the same expensive mistakes I have. It *might* be okay to sell the softsamplers without sampling if the VST host integration were good enough for the lack of sampling and editing not to matter. But to cop out on drag-and-drop too? Not good enough - at least if you want to do more than load/play other people's sounds.
Turns out, there's a lot of people who feel pretty strongly about this along the same lines I do. Who woulda thunk?
A lot of it is just "Who woulda thunk" type stuff. Sure, I probably realized that Independence didn't sample when I bought it, even though it's sold as a "sampler". I thought that even if it couldn't sample, *at least* it would surely be able to do host drag-and-drop of samples to/from a VST host, right?
Wrong. And there are so many others just like Independence (Kontakt, Intakt, ...) So I don't get your argument, really. How can these manufacturers sell these non-samplers as "samplers", without even providing the ability to meaningfully drag-and-drop samples? This seems to me to be unfair to customers. I certainly expected when I bought (for example) Independence and Kontakt that I would be able to find *some way* that made some sense to incorporate them in my music production workflow. Instead, I'm treated to that frustrating sound we all know so well - the hollow, echoey sound of the empty wallet. And I'm still looking for the sampling solution these products claimed to provide.
My KVR reviews of the non-samplers stemmed from this frustration. I wrote those reviews in hopes that I might be able to help a few people avoid making the same expensive mistakes I have. It *might* be okay to sell the softsamplers without sampling if the VST host integration were good enough for the lack of sampling and editing not to matter. But to cop out on drag-and-drop too? Not good enough - at least if you want to do more than load/play other people's sounds.
Turns out, there's a lot of people who feel pretty strongly about this along the same lines I do. Who woulda thunk?
Last edited by lordvader48 on Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:04 am, edited 4 times in total.
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- KVRAF
- 13140 posts since 7 May, 2006 from Southern California
I understand what you mean, most of the software that we refer to as "samplers" are merely "sample players". The only software I use that really acts as a fully functional sampler is Ableton Live. I'm sure that there are others (specifically Morgana which I'm very excited about) but I'm speaking strictly of software I use. You can sample a loop or one shot into Live either from an audio input or internally through advanced routing, then you can drag that sample to one of the well laid out sample players (Simpler, Sampler and Impulse. You can also drag and drop files directly from anywhere in your file system. It's interesting because I have always thought of Kontakt as my most powerful sampler but now that I can import Akai sample CDs and NKI. kits into Live I barely use it anymore.
3am
3am
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 174 posts since 25 Apr, 2006
Sampler looks extremely impressive. I really wish that Sampler were available as a VSTi. Even so, I think I might take a look at it. It seems that Sampler is one of the best software sampling products on the market. Ableton really seems to have gotten it right with Sampler, but I really don't like Live.
I do too much complicated MIDI stuff for Live to be of much use as the "main host"...
I do too much complicated MIDI stuff for Live to be of much use as the "main host"...
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- KVRian
- 1096 posts since 31 Aug, 2001 from Los Angeles, California
Most soft-samplers that I use support drap and drop from the desktop/finder (which is where recorded files live anyway). Works great with EXS24/Mach-V/Kontakt2, etc.
So what's the big problem? Drag from the audio file folder to the sampler GUI and it's done. Very simple workflow....it's just a simple matter of arranging your windows properly. Get a bigger monitor, etc....
I have a lot of experience with hardware samplers too....so I understand the whole "immediacy" argument....but here;s the deal:
I can now do incredible things with apps like Keymap now that TOTALLY blow away the old hardware sampler experience. You guys just need to be a little more aware of the amazing tools that are already out there...check it out:
http://www.redmatica.com/Redmatica/Welc ... atica.html
If you really need built-in audio capture, there are samplers like Emulator X that do this very well too.
So what's the big problem? Drag from the audio file folder to the sampler GUI and it's done. Very simple workflow....it's just a simple matter of arranging your windows properly. Get a bigger monitor, etc....
I have a lot of experience with hardware samplers too....so I understand the whole "immediacy" argument....but here;s the deal:
I can now do incredible things with apps like Keymap now that TOTALLY blow away the old hardware sampler experience. You guys just need to be a little more aware of the amazing tools that are already out there...check it out:
http://www.redmatica.com/Redmatica/Welc ... atica.html
If you really need built-in audio capture, there are samplers like Emulator X that do this very well too.
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- KVRer
- 17 posts since 27 Sep, 2004
lordvader48 wrote:I have inadvertently wound up owning a number of these things (soft non-samplers)
Thanks for your candor.
Fighting the common usage of the word "sampler" sounds like an uphill battle.
I bet if you had tried, you would have been refunded your money for these purchases made with a false assumption; you are at least well-spoken enough for such consideration.
In fact, anyone would be (refunded) if they pressed the matter, because "technically" they would have winning cases ("it says sampler on the box...where's the sampler?"...). If enough people pressed the issue, perhaps said companies would change how they word things.
Sadly though, it probably won't happen because you seem to be in a small minority, or perhaps most don't care enough to do anything about it.
Though Kontakt doesn't sample per se, it is the anchor of my workstation...with a community of active "scripters" making what it CAN do--seem utterly limitless.
So I guess I just tend to see the glass "half full" and like "what's out there" for what they CAN DO, and not what they can't....
Mike
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- KVRAF
- 12235 posts since 18 Aug, 2003
Drag and drop works great from Edison into Directwave. And from file into Directwave.
Edison (OLE) and file drag and drop will work with Morgana when it is released.
Drag and drop from file into Battery 3 works only when it is run as a standalone. For some inexplicable reason, it doesn't work with Battery as a VST. I've requested drag and drop through OLE on the NI forum, not sure if they respond to such requests though.
Drag and drop from file works with Shortcircuit v1, but not through OLE. Not sure if that will change with v2, but I hope so.
I don't think drag and drop has been implemented in Liveslice yet, but it's on the future upgrades list.
Edison (OLE) and file drag and drop will work with Morgana when it is released.
Drag and drop from file into Battery 3 works only when it is run as a standalone. For some inexplicable reason, it doesn't work with Battery as a VST. I've requested drag and drop through OLE on the NI forum, not sure if they respond to such requests though.
Drag and drop from file works with Shortcircuit v1, but not through OLE. Not sure if that will change with v2, but I hope so.
I don't think drag and drop has been implemented in Liveslice yet, but it's on the future upgrades list.
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- KVRAF
- 13140 posts since 7 May, 2006 from Southern California
Not to get off topic, but I felt the same way until I recently switched to an Intel based Mac from PC. My hosts of choice used to Cubase and Pro Tools but have since completely converted to a combo of Live, Numerology and Logic. As crazy as it sounds, I feel more freedom of creativity with this setup than any other. I use Live as my performance based sample recorder, Logic as my main sequencer and Numerology for really technical crazy stuff. Due to the fact that I can rewire these apps. all simultaneously, I can scale my setup based on my stage in production. I can't claim that this is the simplest set up, but I haven't found anything that comes close to it's flexibility in terms of midi routing.lordvader48 wrote:I do too much complicated MIDI stuff for Live to be of much use as the "main host"...
However, I agree. I would never THINK of sequencing midi in Ableton Live.
3am
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 174 posts since 25 Apr, 2006
spectrum said:
Tonight I'm trying out what shamann suggested: Edison + DirectWave. Wow, it's so much better than anything else I've tried for cutting. It's really amazing to me that the vendors of Kontakt, etc. might even think that their drag-and-drop implementation is viable.
When it's easier to push out samples from Wavelab over SMDI to my hardware sampler than it is to drag-and-drop between so-called "modern" applications, something is very wrong.
Some might think that this is nit-picking. For those, I suggest you try the existing Kontakt drag-and-drop implementation and put together some custom banks that require hundreds of samples. Tell me how easy you think it is then.
Remember - in DirectWave + Edison we now finally have something that allows you to drag-and-drop a selection or region from Edison directly into a DirectWave zone. I've been needing this for years and this is - let's face it - the way user interfaces are *supposed* to work. The doubters should try it.. it's dramatically better.
I respectfully disagree with this. Having to use the finder or the "Windows Exploiter" as a go-between is nuts. Too fiddly-diddly. Too hard to keep the windows lined up usefully, with the finder/exploiter in the right directory. This is bad user interface design - pure and simple.So what's the big problem? Drag from the audio file folder to the sampler GUI and it's done. Very simple workflow....it's just a simple matter of arranging your windows properly. Get a bigger monitor, etc....
Tonight I'm trying out what shamann suggested: Edison + DirectWave. Wow, it's so much better than anything else I've tried for cutting. It's really amazing to me that the vendors of Kontakt, etc. might even think that their drag-and-drop implementation is viable.
When it's easier to push out samples from Wavelab over SMDI to my hardware sampler than it is to drag-and-drop between so-called "modern" applications, something is very wrong.
Some might think that this is nit-picking. For those, I suggest you try the existing Kontakt drag-and-drop implementation and put together some custom banks that require hundreds of samples. Tell me how easy you think it is then.
Remember - in DirectWave + Edison we now finally have something that allows you to drag-and-drop a selection or region from Edison directly into a DirectWave zone. I've been needing this for years and this is - let's face it - the way user interfaces are *supposed* to work. The doubters should try it.. it's dramatically better.
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- KVRist
- 98 posts since 13 Sep, 2005
spectrum wrote:Most soft-samplers that I use support drap and drop from the desktop/finder (which is where recorded files live anyway). Works great with EXS24/Mach-V/Kontakt2, etc.
So what's the big problem? Drag from the audio file folder to the sampler GUI and it's done. Very simple workflow....it's just a simple matter of arranging your windows properly. Get a bigger monitor, etc....
I have a lot of experience with hardware samplers too....so I understand the whole "immediacy" argument....but here;s the deal:
I can now do incredible things with apps like Keymap now that TOTALLY blow away the old hardware sampler experience. You guys just need to be a little more aware of the amazing tools that are already out there...check it out:
http://www.redmatica.com/Redmatica/Welc ... atica.html
If you really need built-in audio capture, there are samplers like Emulator X that do this very well too.
It's good to know I'm not alone in my opinion of Mr. Vader's nitpicking on the whole semantics of today's "samplers". Thanks for the validation, Mr. P.
John.
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- KVRian
- 868 posts since 7 May, 2002 from Sydney, Australia
I think you need to accept that language changes 
I've worked off an on as a "sound designer" for about 20 years.
A sound designer is a person who creatively manipulates sound FX and atmospheres for films, essentially "framing" the overall sound atmosphere to fit into a director's narrative vision.
Or is it ?
Over the last 2 or 3 years, a "sound designer" is apparently anyone who tweaks a parameter on a synth preset.
So things change ......
I've worked off an on as a "sound designer" for about 20 years.
A sound designer is a person who creatively manipulates sound FX and atmospheres for films, essentially "framing" the overall sound atmosphere to fit into a director's narrative vision.
Or is it ?
Over the last 2 or 3 years, a "sound designer" is apparently anyone who tweaks a parameter on a synth preset.
So things change ......
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- KVRer
- 5 posts since 17 Feb, 2006
Guys, emulator x2 is a software sampler that actually samples in and maps the recorded notes. http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=4128
Check out the emux2 video and pay close attention to "synth swipe"..Its saved me tons of time and work...jebus. i hate doing multis with kontatk because, it doesn't actually sample..i gotta record the notes individually using an editor or my daw, then export blah blah etc etc...I really hope they add sampling capabilities in K3.
Check out the emux2 video and pay close attention to "synth swipe"..Its saved me tons of time and work...jebus. i hate doing multis with kontatk because, it doesn't actually sample..i gotta record the notes individually using an editor or my daw, then export blah blah etc etc...I really hope they add sampling capabilities in K3.
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- KVRAF
- 12235 posts since 18 Aug, 2003
Judging from their website, am I correct in assuming that it only works with EXS24? So, one would need both a Mac and Logic to make use of Keymap?spectrum wrote:Well....try Keymap. It's pretty much light years ahead of everything.