I say "read with caution" because I have read threads where people asked questions such as this and the "theory forum mob" took them out and left them curled in the corner...
So, let me begin by saying that I am asking out of ignorance and with a true desire to learn.
When I think of theory deep music in the electronic genre I think of names such as Milton Babbit, Shostakovich, and Steve Reich. All of these except for Reich are "relatively" past their composing years. So, as I have begun to read through the threads of this forum as a rookie to the KVR site, is there this type of intellectual electronic music being done today? Again, I ask out of ignorance because outside of the genre of Babbit my exposure has been to the dance beat electronic music which, in reference to that which I have been exposed to, does not seem need alot of theory training - especially in terms of harmony.
I hope my question is clear - is there truly innovative electronic composers who have a high regard for theory (including harmony) past, present, and future? If so, will you share them with me so I can begin to listen...
read w/ caution - elec. music and theory?
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- KVRer
- 16 posts since 23 Jan, 2007
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- KVRAF
- 5703 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities
Edgard Varese was a great composer and a pioneer in electronic music. His two electronic works: Poeme Electronique and Deserts (the latter alternated electronic sections with sections played by a chamber ensemble), are required listening.
Pierre Schaeffer was another pioneer. Though he was probably less of a composer than Varese, his methods of working with sound were probably more influential.
Otto Luening was a real understated composer, well worth a listen, along with (at least some of) the rest of the gang at the Columbia-Princeton Electronic Music Center. Your pal Milton was in this bunch. If you can find it, check out his setting of Dylan Thomas' 'Vision and Prayer' for Soprano and (I think it was the RCA) Synthesizer. 'Weird' is a profound understatement.
Let's see.... Boulez and Stockhausen have both written major electronic pieces. And Frank Zappa certainly should be included as well.
I am sure I have missed many. But that should give you something to start with.
Pierre Schaeffer was another pioneer. Though he was probably less of a composer than Varese, his methods of working with sound were probably more influential.
Otto Luening was a real understated composer, well worth a listen, along with (at least some of) the rest of the gang at the Columbia-Princeton Electronic Music Center. Your pal Milton was in this bunch. If you can find it, check out his setting of Dylan Thomas' 'Vision and Prayer' for Soprano and (I think it was the RCA) Synthesizer. 'Weird' is a profound understatement.
Let's see.... Boulez and Stockhausen have both written major electronic pieces. And Frank Zappa certainly should be included as well.
I am sure I have missed many. But that should give you something to start with.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 16 posts since 23 Jan, 2007
Guys... thanks for the reply... many of these that have been mentioned are dead though. I am familiar with some of the names you mentioned herodotus...
I am looking for contemporary, active composers. And, I am also wondering if it is in the same genre of these names that have been mentioned that most of the you who read the "theory" thread compose. Do you guys compose music like this or is the idea behind this thread/forum to discuss the "theory" of electronic dance music?
Just trying to get a handle on things...
I am looking for contemporary, active composers. And, I am also wondering if it is in the same genre of these names that have been mentioned that most of the you who read the "theory" thread compose. Do you guys compose music like this or is the idea behind this thread/forum to discuss the "theory" of electronic dance music?
Just trying to get a handle on things...
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- KVRAF
- 2017 posts since 21 Mar, 2002 from Hutchinson, Kansas
Ihlan Mimaroglu...excellent stuff. Speaking of which, get thee to the Music Cafe and listen to some of Rachmiel's tracks. If any KVR regular could be associated with the Columbia-Princeton lot, it is he.
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- KVRian
- 1358 posts since 15 Oct, 2005 from The Far North
Great article about a modern classically trained composer here:burritosdaily wrote:Guys... thanks for the reply... many of these that have been mentioned are dead though. I am familiar with some of the names you mentioned herodotus...
I am looking for contemporary, active composers. And, I am also wondering if it is in the same genre of these names that have been mentioned that most of the you who read the "theory" thread compose. Do you guys compose music like this or is the idea behind this thread/forum to discuss the "theory" of electronic dance music?
Just trying to get a handle on things...
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/a ... itcher.htm
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- KVRAF
- 1975 posts since 4 Feb, 2005
I think you'll find some very complex meters and harmonies (at least for the style) coming from RDJ, too, though I can't speak as to whether this is out of a theoretical background or a good ear.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 16 posts since 23 Jan, 2007
Aallvor - good article there!
Rachmiel's site is great... good music and some good writings there that he has done... looks like he is a Reaktor guy... I'm wondering if this is common among those working in that genre?
Rachmiel's site is great... good music and some good writings there that he has done... looks like he is a Reaktor guy... I'm wondering if this is common among those working in that genre?
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- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
This is a really good question actually, and one I have no answer to. Infact, it has worried me often that our great Western musical heritage may have come to an end. Nowadays, I really dont know who is making strides with Western music.
If I had to take a guess, I would say that the most 'serious' compositions are being churned out in film. Those guys steal alot, but some of them write some pretty amazing music, and imo are pretty much the only people keeping our music in progression. Many of them I know write concert works along with film scores, so in that way are totally reminiscent of the master composers from yesteryear.
But I do pray that our music wont die. Its a real worry I must say. 200 years ago, the super stars of the day were masters such as Liszt and his contemparies. Those guy started a great tradition, where the best and most charismatic performers became the stars of the day. Now we have 50 Cent instead, famous for being the biggest f**k up some long nosed suit could find at short notice!
Sorry, rant over...
How about Iannis Xenakis? I have no idea if he is still active, or even alive for that matter. But I do remember studying some of his stuff at uni, and reading about how he pioneered granular synthesis.
Didnt Ligeti do some electronic compositions?
Or Glass maybe? Im sure he has. Reich did his thing with the sampled loops if I remember correctly.
And while Im sure this would be debated by some, I think Mr BT would like to consider himself somewhat of serious musician working primarily in the digital realm. Im not sure I would argue with him.
TB
If I had to take a guess, I would say that the most 'serious' compositions are being churned out in film. Those guys steal alot, but some of them write some pretty amazing music, and imo are pretty much the only people keeping our music in progression. Many of them I know write concert works along with film scores, so in that way are totally reminiscent of the master composers from yesteryear.
But I do pray that our music wont die. Its a real worry I must say. 200 years ago, the super stars of the day were masters such as Liszt and his contemparies. Those guy started a great tradition, where the best and most charismatic performers became the stars of the day. Now we have 50 Cent instead, famous for being the biggest f**k up some long nosed suit could find at short notice!
Sorry, rant over...
How about Iannis Xenakis? I have no idea if he is still active, or even alive for that matter. But I do remember studying some of his stuff at uni, and reading about how he pioneered granular synthesis.
Didnt Ligeti do some electronic compositions?
Or Glass maybe? Im sure he has. Reich did his thing with the sampled loops if I remember correctly.
And while Im sure this would be debated by some, I think Mr BT would like to consider himself somewhat of serious musician working primarily in the digital realm. Im not sure I would argue with him.
TB
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35417 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
Trevor Wishart's a theorist himself.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- KVRist
- 103 posts since 31 Jul, 2002 from Norway, Oslo
As a Norwegian, Arne Nordheim is the first contemporary electroacoustic composer I think of:
http://www.arnenordheim.com/list.htm
His last electroacoustical work is from 1987 according to this list. Been to a concert where two percussionists played a work of him. Strange stuff, the playing itself was pretty chaotic and that everything was taped and played back 15 seconds later didn't really bring in any structure to things
As perhaps a bit more unknown musician/composer I can mention Øyvind Brandtsegg. He is currently doing a Research Fellowships in the Arts (same academic level as Ph.D.) on improvisation using algorithmic composition techniques and has also developed a program called ImproSculpt using Csound and Python. I've seen it in use at a concert, and it was quite impressive stuff.
http://oeyvind.teks.no/frames/Index.htm
http://improsculpt.sourceforge.net
ImproSculpt can be used both as a realtime audio processor, and also as a purely generating machine. Various customized versions of ImproSculpt has been used with several sculpture/sound installations, among others The Flounder: http://www.flyndresang.no/en/
This is quite a cool thing. The readings of the 6 parameters you see below the sculpture are transfered from the sculpture location via Internet to a computer running ImproSculpt at NTNU, which uses the values to calculate and "compose" the sound/music. The audio is then transfered back and played through the metal chassis of the sculpture. This sound work is supposed to last for 10 years, and you can stream both versions from the website, the "raw" sound coming from ImproSculpt and the resulting sound after being played through the sculpture.
So on the topic of theory, Brandtsegg's work on algorithmic composing is pretty novel.
http://www.arnenordheim.com/list.htm
His last electroacoustical work is from 1987 according to this list. Been to a concert where two percussionists played a work of him. Strange stuff, the playing itself was pretty chaotic and that everything was taped and played back 15 seconds later didn't really bring in any structure to things
As perhaps a bit more unknown musician/composer I can mention Øyvind Brandtsegg. He is currently doing a Research Fellowships in the Arts (same academic level as Ph.D.) on improvisation using algorithmic composition techniques and has also developed a program called ImproSculpt using Csound and Python. I've seen it in use at a concert, and it was quite impressive stuff.
http://oeyvind.teks.no/frames/Index.htm
http://improsculpt.sourceforge.net
ImproSculpt can be used both as a realtime audio processor, and also as a purely generating machine. Various customized versions of ImproSculpt has been used with several sculpture/sound installations, among others The Flounder: http://www.flyndresang.no/en/
This is quite a cool thing. The readings of the 6 parameters you see below the sculpture are transfered from the sculpture location via Internet to a computer running ImproSculpt at NTNU, which uses the values to calculate and "compose" the sound/music. The audio is then transfered back and played through the metal chassis of the sculpture. This sound work is supposed to last for 10 years, and you can stream both versions from the website, the "raw" sound coming from ImproSculpt and the resulting sound after being played through the sculpture.
So on the topic of theory, Brandtsegg's work on algorithmic composing is pretty novel.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 16 posts since 23 Jan, 2007
I am very relieved that my question did not insult anyone (yet).
I have had the same concerns as "tee boy" mentioned above and I was hoping to find my concerns without warrant.
I can't help but ask why... Why is it with all of the technology that is at our disposal that we are not carrying on the heritage of great intellectually sound computer music? Or, is this great technology one of the things that is inhibiting?
I have had the same concerns as "tee boy" mentioned above and I was hoping to find my concerns without warrant.
I can't help but ask why... Why is it with all of the technology that is at our disposal that we are not carrying on the heritage of great intellectually sound computer music? Or, is this great technology one of the things that is inhibiting?
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35417 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
what 'we' are you referring to when asking that?burritosdaily wrote: Why is it with all of the technology that is at our disposal that we are not carrying on the heritage of great intellectually sound computer music?
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 16 posts since 23 Jan, 2007
broadly... those of us who are involved in western music - maybe specific to this context - those of us who are involved in electronic music.
It seems, as evidenced by this thread of conversation, that there are a hard to find few pursuing "serious" (as it was called earlier - hard to find a good word that doesn't belittle some aspect of music and that is not the intention) electronic music.
It seems, as evidenced by this thread of conversation, that there are a hard to find few pursuing "serious" (as it was called earlier - hard to find a good word that doesn't belittle some aspect of music and that is not the intention) electronic music.
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- KVRAF
- 1975 posts since 4 Feb, 2005
that's true of all music though. Only a very small portion of composers (or whatever you want to call them) were ever on the cutting edge, the rest were doing imitation and making money.
Even if you think about the days of wealthy benefactor sponsorship, it was only the court composers and upper class that were doing things like experimenting with chromatic harmony... the standard folk were using stock composition techniques to create entertaining little songs.
The same holds true today. In fact, I think the musical world today has more innovation, cross-pollenation, and originality (and not just for originality's sake, either) than it ever did in the 17-18th centuries.
Even if you think about the days of wealthy benefactor sponsorship, it was only the court composers and upper class that were doing things like experimenting with chromatic harmony... the standard folk were using stock composition techniques to create entertaining little songs.
The same holds true today. In fact, I think the musical world today has more innovation, cross-pollenation, and originality (and not just for originality's sake, either) than it ever did in the 17-18th centuries.