Modern use of Ancient Modes????

[jee_pack]

I've been craving modal theory for the past few days. I want to realy stick it in my head so that I can explore more exotic melodies for psy trance production. I love the fact the modes are ancient and they can send you somewhere you're not used to going musically. And I love the way the dark ones sound, i.e. Dorian and Phrygian. My objective is to make a composition in a certain mode, lets say Phrygian, to fully put the listener in that mode's state of mind/emotion.

SO... I've read enough on modes to have a good understanding of what they are, I recently found how to put chord progressions on a melodie in modes other Aeolian or Ionian.

And this is what I'm still having trouble with?

-Why is it that I will listen to a psy trance track that is supposed to be in phrygian and I find a bunch of accidentals, it doesn't seem to stay in that mode at all?
-What cadence exist in the different modes? how can you figure them out, i.e, the phrygian cadence... I know its something you play in a minor key, but how is it a a phrygian mode?
-How can you play the notes of a mode, and somehow, switch modes just for a few notes (or just one) with accidentals... and still be in that mode...

Basically, now that I have the basic info on modes, how can I take a mode, and figure out how to make interresting melodies, and chords for a track that could last about 8 minutes without always using the same 7 notes????

thanks for the help

[aMUSEd]

Try to get hold of a copy of Howard Goodalls TV series, "How Music works". The first one was all about the evolution of musical scales and the second was on harmony. He explains things very clearly.

[burritosdaily]

You have ask some big questions and I will take a stab at giving you my two cents.

First, accidentals really don't have anything to do with whether or not something is phrygian. This would be the same way in which you could say this certain piece is minor... it could be a minor, c minor, f# minor, or it could pass through each of these and more all the while being a composition that is minor (which is a mode as you know). So, the accidentals could be because of modulation due to a move to a phrygian scale rooted somewhere else...

Second, cadences, to the best of my knowledge, don't change in modes. The same way that you would have the same cadence option in a major scale that you would in a minor one (which are two different modes). Classically there could be some difference if you were talking about the rules of counterpoint but in contemporary music I don't think you need to worry about this... so just reference your usual cadences.

Third, this question is a bit hard to answer. Again, if you are in a major key and choose to compose using a V/V (five chord built out of the key of the 5 note in your key)you are still "relatively" in the same key. However, if after you use this V/V you move to that key then you have modulated... you are still major (in the major mode before and currently) but your root has changed.

If none of this helps you or speaks to your question then just disregard :^)

[JumpingJackFlash]

-Why is it that I will listen to a psy trance track that is supposed to be in phrygian and I find a bunch of accidentals, it doesn't seem to stay in that mode at all?

The same way classical music can have chromatic notes, or even passing modulations, and still be in the same key overall, for the majority of the piece.

-What cadence exist in the different modes? how can you figure them out, i.e, the phrygian cadence... I know its something you play in a minor key, but how is it a a phrygian mode?

Cadences don't always work modally. You can always have V-I, but the tonal hierarchy won't be there, so it won't have the same effect. - For example, in the Dorian mode, both I and V are minor chords, the 'pull' won't be the same because you don't have that leading note to tonic progression.

The Phrygian Cadence is usually defined as IVb-V in a minor key (although some people define it as I-III). It is derived from the Phrygian mode, but it's not necessarily in the phrygian mode at that point.

-How can you play the notes of a mode, and somehow, switch modes just for a few notes (or just one) with accidentals... and still be in that mode...

The same way as you can have chromatic notes in a tonal piece. - Decoration, spice, whatever. It's still in the same key or mode overall.

Basically, now that I have the basic info on modes, how can I take a mode, and figure out how to make interresting melodies, and chords for a track that could last about 8 minutes without always using the same 7 notes????

Well, that's creativity isn't it. I don't think it can really be taught. People have been making good music out of only 7 notes for centuries, have a listen to some of it.

[Topiness]

how can I take a mode, and figure out how to make interresting melodies, and chords for a track that could last about 8 minutes without always using the same 7 notes????

i'm not sure that's a worthwhile aim...

Lets say a mode puts you in a certain state of mind... great at first, but after a while, you get used to it. You're ready for a new state of mind...

which is why most styles of music that you would talk about in these terms DO change scale and/or tonal center to make it interesting.

Or, you might find that for a while a piece only uses 4 or 5 notes of the mode/scale, and then whips out the other two. You wouldn't call that modulation or use of accidentals of course, but that's just a question of terminology.

[liqih]

My objective is to make a composition in a certain mode, lets say Phrygian, to fully put the listener in that mode's state of mind/emotion.

I like this, it's close to the Raga concept of Hindustan music,

and as you may know, to fully exploit that a raga is played against a drone with few constant notes but many harmonics.

About Phrygian harmony instead you may listen to some Flamenco and check this
http://chrisjuergensen.com.hosting.doma ... odes_2.htm

The b9sus chord, sometimes known as the "Phrygian" chord

BTW I'd love to hear you Phrygian psy trance

[Topiness]

Phrygian is pretty much the standard mode for trance anyway, isn't it?

have a look at 'Tonal and Melodic Devices' in this page...

[liqih]

Phrygian is pretty much the standard mode for trance anyway, isn't it?

have a look at 'Tonal and Melodic Devices' in this page...

ah, interesting page, I'm not an expert of trance at all, thanks,

[Bonteburg]

Phrygian - Miser lou
lydian - The Simpsons


Marco

[jee_pack]

THANKS A LOT EVERYONE! Even if I know that knowing music theory won't necessarly make your music good, I appreciate all the response, this usualy does not happen when I post on a forum, thanks again....

And by the way,

-Why is it that I will listen to a psy trance track that is supposed to be in phrygian and I find a bunch of accidentals, it doesn't seem to stay in that mode at all?

The same way classical music can have chromatic notes, or even passing modulations, and still be in the same key overall, for the majority of the piece.

[/quote]

What exactly is a passing modulation, and by the way, how do you modulate the phrygian mode using the V chord, if there is no V chord in the phrygian since the 5th note just makes the tritone... My guest is to just start revolving to a different chord... but I'm in the blue...



And to respond to Liqih: thanks for the intrest, but actually I'm gearing up for my first psy trance track, I've been lacking confidence to go into this style for a while, but now I'm determined to bring my experience to a new level, psy trance will be a first so it might be a while before anything finished product gets.... well... finished.


And to add one to BONTEBURG's list: try playing the starwars theme starting on E and playing only white keys... (PHRYGIAN)... this track is powerfull, and barely any chords and all inside the mode.

N-E, thanks again everyone

[burritosdaily]

jee_pack,

Don't let yourself get confined by the boxes of conventional theory. A chord, if I remember correctly, is just any two notes played at the same time. My words to you would be not to force yourself into looking for "classical" cadences. Search for new harmonies and look for new ways to develop that tension and release that a cadence would produce. Experiment with different interval relationships between the tones of the scale. Personally, I think this is more fun. But, this is a great way to find some new very original sounds.

[talynidm]

-Why is it that I will listen to a psy trance track that is supposed to be in phrygian and I find a bunch of accidentals, it doesn't seem to stay in that mode at all?

Ok you know this, so I'm not being some kind of jackalope, but modes as scales themselves as I think of them are just starting on one note of any major scale, but starting on a different note, and ending on a different note, so when you play the scale it has intervals in it that are in a different order and so they sound different.

So having said that, the reason the "distinct" sound of a mode does not sometimes "come out" and "take advantage of the order of intervals", is two fold IMO:

1. To really get the distinct sound of a mode, in a melody by itself, it helps to "hover" around the beginning and end points, straying from them to develop the melody, but ultimately "returning" to the first few or last few notes of the mode. When you return or stick to some of the different intervals of the mode, without any chords played behind them, I think the innate sound of the different intervals from start to finish are emphasized, and so you get the distinct sound of the mode.

2. When I use chords behind them I use alot of suspended chords that don't have any real strong tonality with respect to the key.

If you are playing say mixolydian or whatever mode of say C major and you plop a bunch of triad minor or major chords behind it, it just sounds like C major to me. I think it's either just a natural tendency of our brains to heear that, or we are just "used to hearing" major/minor keys.

Bascially the further away from a strong tonal chord you get while trying to emphasize a mode, the better.

Whether it be suspended or some form of 4th chords, or large chords past 7th's, in essence the more major minor tonality you just get away from, and return to the start or end of modes, I've found that to my ear and it makes sense in theory, that really helps bring out the distinct sound of any mode.

Just my two cents.

Also using other scales non western scales will bring a great departure from most of the stuff people hear.

This is offtopic, but one thing I really like in some of my favorite music is alot of key modulation. And without getting into the circle of fifths and all of that, one thing is if you have the "pictures" of the keys in in your head, you get some nice transitions from playing keys with say, small differences such as C Maj and E Min, and then to get drastic effects, emphasize the G Flat in E Minor hold it and then move to a drastically different key like F # Maj or A Maj, those are just two examples that come to mind.

[jee_pack]

Thanks for all the tips again...
I've tryed everything you said but I'm still stuck on something I've trying to do for a few days:

Can someone help me analyse a track from http://takyonmusic.com/ track name: hypergate.

The artists say its in phrygian mode. I don't want to copy it or anything. But I wish I could have just a little clue of how they started setting up the melos and mood for the track.

Of course they went with creativity, but a text you can read about the song says:
"this track is in the phryghian mode to take you to another world (in this case, alpha prime)." Its sort of a space sci-fi track.

My guess is they did not just write random melos and then look at it and say:
"Hey! this is in the phrygian mode!"

What ever they did, wheather it was making a chord progression in the phrygian mode or make a melo out of that mode and then modulated it for variation purpose. I would like to be able to analyse it to learn from it.

Right now I am stuck on the climax of the song wich takes part in the 2nd half. To me it does what the author says it does, the sound of it is very unique. But I look at the notes and I can't see how this is the Phrygian mode... Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

This part starts after the first break, when the kick drops out for a few mesures to go into a buildup.

these are the notes played:
(if I write A(2), it means A but one octave higher that the other A, in case you want to know the feel of the melody)

A - G - E - C#/Db - A(2) - E - G - E (repeat x 2)
then the A becomes Bb
Bb - G - E - C#/Db - Bb(2) - E - G - E (repeat x 2)
and then it goes back to A but the melo changes a bit
A - F - E - D - A(2) - E - F - D (repeat x 4)

I'd love to know how this is made theoreticaly, and if you are good enough to do that with the first part of the track, that would be even better.

I'm hoping that its possible to analyse this generally with something like this:
example: it starts in X PRHYGIAN with X - X chords, the bass is the tonic. It then modulates to X Phrygian in the 2nd part and the bass is still the tonic.

Acutally I doubt it will be simple as that, but hey, I've got nothing so far. So anything is good.

ps: if it helps, when ever there is bass present in the track, its always on A. And I am very curious as to what role does that A have in theory. For instance, would it be the tonic? Would it be what actualy makes everything sound like the phrygian mode?



AND if you can figure something out, I would also appreciate it if you could explain how you did it.
THANKS A LOT!

[jee_pack]

-Why is it that I will listen to a
This is offtopic, but one thing I really like in some of my favorite music is alot of key modulation.

Well even if its off topic I take it as great advice, thanks...

And thanks for your advice on how to make a melody sound like a mode, I thought what you said made a lot of sense... and I hadn't read anything about that yet... interresting, although I probably was reading something about this, the way you put made is sound less confusing, thanks.

[JumpingJackFlash]

What exactly is a passing modulation

See my Introduction to Modulation for details on (tonal) modulations.