KVR Audio

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:56 pm

thanks JumpingJackFlash, hey if you have a minute, could you listen to the climax of that psy trance phrygian track I posted the address to in that long reply that I added today and tell me if you think that the reason why the bass note "A" in the melody can change to Bb for the 3rd and 4th mesures without affecting the other notes in the melody would be that their has been a passing modulation in those 2 mesures... if if in your opinion, something else happened?

dreamkeeper · Post by **dreamkeeper** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:09 am

I'm probably way off base here, being a noob myself (and my age sure doesn't help with learning that stuff

), but I'd say that's the 5th mode of D harmonic minor, also called HM5 or harmonic dominant.

I guess you could call it A Phrygian#3 as well because the 3rd note is sharpened (C --> C#), if you take Phrygian as basis. This scale/mode has a nice oriental feel, and I like to use it when noodling around with sweet synth leads. Of course the trance-typical "jumping around" at a fairly high tempo makes it much less oriental sounding, but the exotic touch is still there to some amount.

Anyway, I cannot help you with analyzing, I'm afraid. Just thought I'd point out what caught my eye... er... ear.

werner

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:43 am

Well, don't think your age has anything to do with what you know about theory, and if you are new to theory, I'm actually very curious about how you even found out about that scale (I read so much stuff on modes and never noticed anything about building them on something else that a major scale)... you're right on the dial actually, I made a google search with the Harmonic minor dominant, and found that it can also be called the phrygian dominant, and with a search on the phrygian dominant, found that this is the scale/mode used in that psytrance track I was trying to analyse, this brings up a few other questions on modes now that I finally understood that track (but for a different thread). Thanks!

dreamkeeper · Post by **dreamkeeper** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:35 am

jee_pack wrote:I'm actually very curious about how you even found out about that scale

I learned theory mostly from this book (although the german version in my case):

Frank Haunschild: The New Harmony Book

It starts with the very basics, but moves on quickly to the more advanced stuff. Haunschild explains the relationships and differences between scales/modes very well, and a lot of scales are listed in the book. Just made a search on amazon.com and found it here in case you're interested.

I have to admit though that quite some stuff in there is still over my head - but this may change.

EoN604 · Post by **EoN604** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:07 am

Very interesting topic. I've always been keen on this, and for psy/progressive trance also.

Although I do have one (possibly very novice, stupid) question. It's been a while since I've learned basic music theory. But aren't each of the MODE's just another term for a particular chord/key? For example Lonian == Major? (I'm not sure if that's right, but talking conceptually)? Another = minor?

In which case trying to write a track in a mode is no different to writing a track in a "key"? Any track you write is always in some MODE. If i write a minor tune, it's in a MODE, right?

I guess what I'm getting at: Is saying "This track is in Phrygian" just a fancy psy-trance marketing mystical attempt at saying "this track is written in "Dflat minor diminished 7th" (or something along those lines")?

Km7 · Post by **Km7** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:21 pm

The church modes could also be classified as minor and major types according to the quality of the third degree. What makes them different is their characteristic note. When this differences are shown in the melody clearly enough, we have modal melody. But the overall sound wouldn't be clearly modal, if the harmony is not modal. So we should use progressions which imply the modal sound and include the characteristic note. While in tonal harmony we divide chords in three types (tonic, sub-dominant, dominant), in modal harmony they are tonic and non-tonic. And the cadences which establish the modes are modal cadences.
Things that occur in music could be understood and explained with the help of acoustics (especially musical and psychological). The most stable and in-rest mode is the Ionian mode. It is the acoustical source of the other modes and they have some tendency to it which the composer must balance with care in order to not be thrown out from the mode. That's why modal harmony is often simpler.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:41 pm

EoN604 wrote:Very interesting topic. I've always been keen on this, and for psy/progressive trance also.

Although I do have one (possibly very novice, stupid) question. It's been a while since I've learned basic music theory. But aren't each of the MODE's just another term for a particular chord/key? For example Lonian == Major? (I'm not sure if that's right, but talking conceptually)? Another = minor?

In which case trying to write a track in a mode is no different to writing a track in a "key"? Any track you write is always in some MODE. If i write a minor tune, it's in a MODE, right?

I guess what I'm getting at: Is saying "This track is in Phrygian" just a fancy psy-trance marketing mystical attempt at saying "this track is written in "Dflat minor diminished 7th" (or something along those lines")?

It's not quite as simple as that.

See my post on Scales, Modes and Chords for a brief description of the various modes (located at the bottom of the page) and how they compare to standard major/minor scales.

It is true that the major scale is the "Ionian Mode", and the natural minor scale is the "Aeolian Mode", but that is where the simple equivalents end.

For example, you could say "This track uses the major scale with flattened 2nd, flattened 3rd, flattened 6th and flattened 7th degrees"
Or, you could say "This track uses the "Phrygian Mode".

Which do you think is easier?

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:00 pm

I've posted and long reply in my post in this thread:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=166250
I posted this after this forum help me understand the complete modal theory, when you get at this point, as many here will know, its actually very simple, it just stops looking very complex and it all clears up for you. No one ever replyed to this thread, probably cuse it looked to long and boring to read. Which I would understand cuse I have a very strong sens of detail. But if your interrested, take a look, and it should answer your question.

because no, a mode is not like a scale, I've listed the intervals of 21 modes in this thread, also explain why do these modes exist and how you figure out how to play them. And if you just read the introduction texts, you'll that I mention at one point, that after taking a look at these 21 modes, they are all unique, not one of them is the same scale as annother, the sound is different in all of these 21 modes, sometimes similar to another one but completly different at the same time. All because of the center note, what can also be refered to as the tonic, see the last reply in this thread where I list one of the simplest examples out there to understand this principal.

mystran · Post by **mystran** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:24 pm

The constant A bass was mentioned.... and like.. that's basicly a drone. And I personally like to sometimes consider it a drone even if it moves (like a bassline around some constant note). It's more or less normal in trace to use a bass essentially as a drone, but then move it to emphasize dominant (whatever you happen to use as your dominant), or just avoid it sound too stalled.

One nice thing about a drone is that in case of no chords, a drone will make you think it's the tonic around, as long as whatever you dump on top of it doesn't conflict too badly.

Takyon's The Labyrinth is actually another tune worth looking at, as it demonstrates many common psytrance practices, among others the "almost drone" basslines and the above mentioned strategy of holding melody close to some note to build tension around that note.

Maybe that wasn't useful and maybe it was already covered but my 0.02 euro anyway.

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:36 pm

thanks, although its only a technical term, now I know what a drone is... And when get a chance, I will listen to labyrynth, I should have heard it before but not realy analysing it and paying attention to details... if you could point out any of the techniques I should be looking for when I listen to it, that could help detecting them... thanks for the tip

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:50 pm

In that case I'd say it's better to think of it less like a drone and more like a pedal tone.

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:14 pm

honestly, 5 minutes ago, I did not know what a drone is, but to me those are only words and words don't change anything to music, but still I am curious to know something, toxikator, for your, what would be the difference between a drone and a pedal tone? I know what a pedal tone is, but not sure how to see it differently from a drone, cuse I don't exactly know what's a drone.... what is a drone anyways???

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:19 pm

A drone is literally unchanging; a single, sustained note. A pedal tone is where a single note in the bass essentially doesn't change so that the harmony moving over top of it is altered. This note can be retriggered and moved around slightly, so long as it doesn't change very much. It gets its name from when you'd hold or tap a single pedal on an organ's bass footboard.

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:22 pm

thanks!

mystran · Post by **mystran** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:26 pm

Well, Toxikator got some point, althought typically a pedal tone is something that is not on tonic, while a trance bassline typically doesn't need much resolution, hence a drone. On the other hand, considering the bassline is establishing a mode, it's not technically on the natural tonic of whatever regular scale.

Personally I don't see much point in making a difference between a point and a drone, other than the other being temporal and the other semi-permanent. Much of the time they behave similarly enough anyway..

As for the labyrinth, it just happens to have some stuff easy to notice.. as for harmonic/melodic stuff, it has melodies that essentially circle around some note then visit futher notes come back to where they started, starting anew in the next phrase.

It has pads building tension at the end of phrase without the pad itself ever moving anywhere, so it sort of fades back to resolution.

Around half way it has this other melody that kinda repeasts modulating upwards (and ends basicly through a rather normal cadence) while the bass stays constant.

It also demonstrates how the bassline need not really be constrained to a single tone, yet melodies can still build harmonics on top of it, and also how some of the tune the bass is truly constant on one note, but the "drone" sort of stays even when it's starts playing a more interesting line.

Ofcourse it also demonstrates many normal rythmic tricks with melodies, most importantly that a repeating pattern in melody need not match the beat in length, hence beat matching different notes on different repeats... or something..

Not that Hypergate wouldn't demonstrate much of the stuff, but there's more stuff happening there so IMHO it's a bit harder to pick stuff up.

Something some I personally absolutely love though, is nicely demonstrated Hypergate; tones slowly bending to a new note to match a new harmony. Especially nice this when it passes a note which added to other sounding notes creates some nicely dissonant harmony which sort of resolves as the note bends futher.

So much magic in the arrangement..

Modern use of Ancient Modes????