Quick questions and answers on modes

[jee_pack]

I recently started a thread on modes because I had on particular issue with a song in phrygian. This issue is the reason I joined this forum. I got the answer I was looking for in my other thread (thanks to everyone who replyed), but it now brings up a few other questions... Quick ones though, mostly trying to make something simple out of the dozens of resources I found on the web wich all say at least one thing about modes that the others don't.

Instead of asking a million questions that could be answered all at once, I figured I'll just add one question per reply, and if you can answer it, just quote the question and add the answer. And if you have a question about modes, just post your question.

Thanks to everyone who will participate...

[jee_pack]

Question:

What ever I look for about theory, I always take a look at Wikipedia to see what kind of info they have on it, and they actually have interrestion things there about modes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode

But, the first picture in the text lists modes from 1 to 8, in a way of only listing the Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian and Mixolidian modes with each one having its equivalent as "Hypo". For instance: Hypomixolydian. (this confused me but I still need to read some material on that). But heres the question:

Does anyone know why the Lydian and Hypolydian modes have B flat in them? This is a major confusion because in basic modal theory, I thought you could build modes with the white keys... so why is this picture not reflecting that?

Thanks in advance

[Toxikator]

They shouldn't. It's an error. The lydian mode has an augmented 4th.

EDIT: Sorry. The image refers to a different kind of mode, the ancient Greek.

If you read down you'll see that these modes precede the "modern" modal names.

[jee_pack]

thanks! that's one this not confusing me anymore

[jee_pack]

????????????????
ANOTHER QUESTION
????????????????

I recently learned thanks to someone on this forum (don't know his user name right off hand) that modes are not only constructed of major scales... Well maybe that's not the way to say it, but the bottom line was that thanks to the Harmonic Minor Scale, you can build modes with extra Sharp in them...

For instance:
The Phrygian dominant scale is constructed by raising the third of the Phrygian scale and is the fifth mode of the harmonic minor scale, the fifth being the dominant.

Question:
In practice, can you see this happening on every mode, and if yes, how would you call it? I mean, is this done only with the dominant mode of harmonic minor, giving us the the phrygian dominant, or do you see this on all of harmonic minor's modes, therefor having this "extra Sharp" possibility on all of the 7 Modes? And if so, where can I read about this, I would love to see something that talks about all 14 modes, with description of the kind of mood they can set or where they come from geographicaly and historically....


Thanks in advance

[gravehill]

All 14? Try "all 21" if you count the modes of a major scale (which equals to the modes of natural minor scale) plus the modes of harmonic minor (that's where the Dominant Phrygian scale also comes from) plus the modes of melodic minor. In reality it's still more that that. Take any ethnic scale for instance, that doesn't fit in any of the above-mentioned scales. See how many notes it contains. That's the amount of modes you get from that scale as well.

[Toxikator]

that kind of modality is not very common.

It works in theory but in reality there are only the 8 modes. If you get to discussing the Super Locrian or the Phrygian dominant, while very cool scales indeed, they are no more "modes" than Kumoi, Iwato, Overtone, Pentatonic, etc.

[mayan]

"Kind of Blue" is mode-based. Here's a little quote from the Wikipedia regarding its origins.

"In 1953, pianist George Russell published his Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization, which offered an alternative to the practice of improvisation based on chords. Abandoning the traditional major and minor key relationships of Western music, Russell invented a new formulation using scales or a series of scales for improvisations; this approach came to be known as modal in jazz."

I have NO idea what this means...I can get a feel for the modal nature of KOB but I have no sense as to whether they favored particular modes or whether KOB was a modal orgy that explored every permutation and combination of mode discussed in this forum. Whatever...I consider this, trite but true, to be one of the most incredibly beautiful albums of all time and definately one for my personal desert island. I put up the quote because Russell's book, as one of the basis of a new direction in American music, might be a great read for those with more understanding (and those who can track it down.)

I'm fascinated by modes. I hear 'em but I don't understand 'em. This thread (and the other one) are scintillating reading to me that should jump start another one of my binged explorations. Thanks!

[jee_pack]

nice! keep reading, I'm fascinated by modes too, and I intend or getting this thread as far as it can go, right now, I'm trying to make sens of Modes vs Synthetic Modes. I learned about half an hour ago about the Super Locryan, wich ended up leading me to this quote from Wikipedia:

Synthetic modes are modes that are not clearly derived from the major scale. Whereas the seven major modes (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian) are all based around the major scale and therefore can coincide with each other (i.e. B Locrian, A Aeolian, and D Dorian all coming to be the notes of the C Major Scale), synthetic modes work differently.

thanks for your input

[Toxikator]

Basically synthetic modes are "modes" in the sense that they are scales made from degrees of other scales (Phrygian is the 5th degree of the minor, Aeolian is the 6th degree of the major, etc.), but NOT in the sense that they're historically a part of the modal tradition.

[nuffink]

"Kind of Blue" is mode-based. Here's a little quote from the Wikipedia regarding its origins.

"In 1953, pianist George Russell published his Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization, which offered an alternative to the practice of improvisation based on chords. Abandoning the traditional major and minor key relationships of Western music, Russell invented a new formulation using scales or a series of scales for improvisations; this approach came to be known as modal in jazz."

I have NO idea what this means...I can get a feel for the modal nature of KOB but I have no sense as to whether they favored particular modes or whether KOB was a modal orgy that explored every permutation and combination of mode discussed in this forum. Whatever...I consider this, trite but true, to be one of the most incredibly beautiful albums of all time and definately one for my personal desert island. I put up the quote because Russell's book, as one of the basis of a new direction in American music, might be a great read for those with more understanding (and those who can track it down.)

I'm fascinated by modes. I hear 'em but I don't understand 'em. This thread (and the other one) are scintillating reading to me that should jump start another one of my binged explorations. Thanks!

This - Rockit: The Herbie Hancock Story - is currently running on Radio2. About 20 minutes in, Wayne Shorter gives his version of the genesis of Kind of Blue and modal jazz. To paraphrase...

"Herbie just took his left hand off the keyboard and stopped playing chords." That rings true to me.

[Mr Arkadin]

Just thought this was interesting as everyone is talking about ancient greek modes, well they're not so ancient or Greek:

There is a common misconception that the Church modes of medieval European music were directly descended from the Greek notion of modality mentioned above. In fact, the church modes originated in the 9th century. Authors from that period misinterpreted a text by Boethius, a scholar from the 6th century who had translated the Greek musical theory into Latin. In the 16th century, the Swiss theorist Henricus Glareanus published Dodekachordon, in which he solidified the concept of the church modes, and added four additional modes: the Aeolian, Hypoaeolian, Ionian, and Hypoionian. Thus, the names of the modes used today do not actually reflect those used by the Greeks.

Also note that these modes were used in church - ie. before our 'friend' the even-tempered scale came about, so today's modes will sound different to early church music.

If you want to have a real idea of what Greek music may have been like - listen to Harry Partch who was highly influenced by Greek instruments and theatre. Of course, he wasn't literally copying there systems and instruments so the results are very much his own.

Also worth tracking down is the CD "Musique de la Grece Antique" by Atrium Miscae de Madrid on Harmonia Mundi (HMA1901015) which contains music found on ancient papyrus, including the only musical fragments to survive from Imperial Rome. Of course, we will never know how close these come to how they actually sounded - there is always a certain amount of guesstimation with these things.

[mayan]

ONly thing is, nuffink, it wasn't Herbie Hancock on Kind of Blue...it was Bill Evans. Herbie was merely a twinkle in Miles' eye at the time of KOB.

[nuffink]

ONly thing is, nuffink, it wasn't Herbie Hancock on Kind of Blue...it was Bill Evans. Herbie was merely a twinkle in Miles' eye at the time of KOB.

True. It just goes to show that you can never trust a musician. Even if it is Wayne Shorter.

[mayan]

That's very funny! A couple of months ago, I was totally entranced by Footsteps by Davis' quintet...I think it was written by Shorter. Played it over and over. What a magnificent piece. And probably modal too. (But I don't know my ass from my elbow when it comes to that stuff.)