KVR Audio

kylen · Post by **kylen** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:19 am

hasenbraten wrote:mixing low freq. bass with headphones is like playing tennis in the dark though.

from my experience a headphone mix may or may not work on speakers, a monitor mix in most of the cases works on speakers and headphones.

when judging reverb and density of a mix. how to do that on cans when you aint got no room, no "normal" listening enviroment to base your judgement on?

Yes - I find the same thing in headphones (Beyer 770 - both old and 2006 version, Beyer DT880, and SennHD600). Bass, reverb and trying to properly set a dynamics processor are all problematic IMO. I can't really tell what I've done till I get out in the open air...in the phones I can tell when it sounds good, but I can't tell when it isn't right...sounds wierd but that's my experience. Having said that I'm out on the road on an IT contract and only have headphones - I have to check my work in the car stereo which is my air reference - then tweak in the phones, takes a while but some things are possible...

aetmos · Post by **aetmos** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:06 am

Saying you can't make good electronic/dance music on headphones is stupid. I only use headphones, I write dance music (primarily), and I do just fine.

I never said it couldn't be done, all I said was you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. There's always *somebody* who breaks the rule, and gets away with it. But for the most part, mixing on monitors generally is the better way to go. It's also less fatiguing on the ears, allowing you to work longer without discomfort.

from my experience a headphone mix may or may not work on speakers, a monitor mix in most of the cases works on speakers and headphones.

I definitely agree with that. There have been plenty of times I've had to throw together a rough mix on headphones while on the road, and when I got home and threw it up on the monitors, I was amazed at how bad it sounded (and yes, I do have good headphones). But I've never mixed a track on the monitors, and then checked it in the headphones, and been like, "woh, that sounds bad".

Claiming that "most studios use them, so therefore they must be better" is foolish, and I could cite NS-10s, Pro Tools, hardware, etc. to prove my point.

I didn't say that it proved the point, I merely used it as evidence that there is a significant difference. A lot of times people take advice from other people on this forum who really don't know what they're talking about much more than the person asking the question. Just saying, "yeah, I mixed everything on headphones, and when I check them on my headphones they sound great" is an entirely useless observation.

But hey, if it works for you, who am I to say you're wrong...

kritikon · Post by **kritikon** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:08 am

Headphones don't weigh very much. Whereas a pair of Genelecs strapped over your head put quite a strain on your neck. And you spend a fortune on earwax treatments. Headphones at least are designed to fit the actual speaker bits over your ears. I always find that I can never put speakers over my head so that the bass cones rest against my eardrums...that's why the regular advice that headphones are bad for bass...you always end up with the tweeters against your ears. I hear dual concentrics work far better as headphones. I wish my ears weren't at the side of my head. Crickets and cicadas apparently don't have ears on their heads either. But I can never get the right sound when I rub my legs together. I used to know a girl who rubbed her legs together when she walked...she didn't wear headphones though. There must be a connection somewhere...I wonder where her ears were? Can't have been in her legs, surely?

Hmmmm...champagne is better than I remember it being. Doesn't taste good with those mushrooms though.

camsr · Post by **camsr** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:13 am

kritikon wrote:Headphones don't weigh very much. Whereas a pair of Genelecs strapped over your head put quite a strain on your neck. And you spend a fortune on earwax treatments. Headphones at least are designed to fit the actual speaker bits over your ears. I always find that I can never put speakers over my head so that the bass cones rest against my eardrums...that's why the regular advice that headphones are bad for bass...you always end up with the tweeters against your ears. I hear dual concentrics work far better as headphones. I wish my ears weren't at the side of my head. Crickets and cicadas apparently don't have ears on their heads either. But I can never get the right sound when I rub my legs together. I used to know a girl who rubbed her legs together when she walked...she didn't wear headphones though. There must be a connection somewhere...I wonder where her ears were? Can't have been in her legs, surely?

Hmmmm...champagne is better than I remember it being. Doesn't taste good with those mushrooms though.

You have to be drunk to read all that, and here we are

camsr · Post by **camsr** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:17 am

jebudas wrote:If you pan a snare far left, and listen on headphones...
your right ear doesnt hear the snare.

On monitors, it does.

You know this is a very good point.

Are our headphones REALLY effecting the way we hear sound!? Is it possible to position a sound source in the stereo field, knowing that with stereo, it takes two to tango (ears that is)? Find out next week on another exciting adventure!!

kritikon · Post by **kritikon** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:17 am

Dunno about reading it, but it was a bugger typing it.

kritikon · Post by **kritikon** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:19 am

Anyway...if you turn your headphones around the other way, you can hear the left one. Or the right one...whichever one it is now.

Minispek · Post by **Minispek** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:33 am

You just have a wider stereo image on headphones. It is as if the music is inserted directly in your head. With monitors, the stereo image is narrower and the sound comes from in front of you. I mainly use headphones, because it gives me more detail then monitors.

In the end it's not so much about the headphones or the monitors. I know a guy who makes commercial progressive trance on the headphones that came with is I-pod and is cheap computer boxes. He is used to their sound and he knows what his tracks should sound like on those devices to get them right.

stevieb19 · Post by **stevieb19** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:50 am

There was a great article in a recent Sound on Sound Mag about mixing on headphones.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan07/a ... phones.htm

However no online version at the moment (unless you want to pay for it).

It inferred that it was perfectly possible to mix on headphones but periodically check the mix on monitors.

This is what if have to do as I cannot mix on monitors in my home studio except at weekends due to neighbours and kids. I find it works fine for me though. Although I do insert an effect into the output channel which helps with the crosstalk issue. Sorry bu the name of the plugin escapes me but it was freeware.

Also, I have just upgraded my headphones to a pair of Grado SR125 which are the dogs dangly bits.

camsr · Post by **camsr** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:53 am

I got Grado SR125s too! Kinda uncomfortable huh?

krushing · Post by **krushing** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:53 am

One simple fact: hearing phase issues with headphones isn't gonna happen. In the worst case, a headphone mix with lots of stereo effects and the like could be completely destroyed when listened from speakers.

stevieb19 · Post by **stevieb19** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:54 am

Found that plugin

http://www.refinedaudiometrics.com/products-hdphx.shtml

stevieb19 · Post by **stevieb19** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:11 am

camsr wrote:I got Grado SR125s too! Kinda uncomfortable huh?

Funny ain't it I think they are pretty comfortable. Maybe not as much as my Senny 25 pro's but not that bad.

Personal taste I guess.

Apparently they get better with age but I have only had mine for about a month so only just breaking them in

aetmos · Post by **aetmos** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:35 pm

krushing wrote:One simple fact: hearing phase issues with headphones isn't gonna happen.

That might be true, but it brings up an interesting demo that somebody showed me once. If you play a sine wave at 440Hz in one monitor and a sine wave at 438Hz in the other monitor, what do you get? Beating at a rate of 2Hz, right? Why? Because the sound waves are mixing together and creating the beating effect in the air before it gets to you, right?

Now try it with headphones. It doesn't make any sense, but you still hear the beating...

Haven't tried it with phasing, though. You may still be able to hear phase problems, too, even though technically it makes no sense. The brain is a weird thing.

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:38 pm

It's not the beating of the air that you hear (you can't hear 2hz)... it's a psychoacoustic effect, or an auditory illusion.

Headphones vs. Monitors