Why are you using prepared grooves?

[mellotronaut]

I use, whatever fits into my stuff, no matter if it's prepared or has to be prepared. It has to fit...that's it!

[Mr3]

I've seen people say 'all that matters is what you create, not what you use', and other people saying things alluding to skillful use of the available tools.

I think there are really two seperate issues at play here. I've thought about this before, not with this exact topic, but with musicians who are inspired by what came before, which leads to the birth of 'genres' and new 'styles' of music. Some may look at it as ripping off. Well...

I think there are actually two things to consider when judging art (including music). The work itself, and the artist. Someone might take some prefab loops, prefab basslines, melodies etc, and just layer them together, do a little arranging, whatever, and it might result in an awesome track. You can judge the track itself just like that: its 'awesome'. or whatever dumb adjective you want to apply. The artist on the other hand, in this case, didn't actually do much to acheive it, maybe a little arrangement of the structure. It was other artists who actually made the recordings which were used so the track is actually the work of several artists. This is ALWAYS true. Without the beatles 70s rock would have been totally different than how it worked out. etc etc etc.

I feel like its up to the artist to judge themselves because no one else knows how much work THEY put into their work, besides themselves. They are the ones who must go to sleep with themselves at night, and the only ones who can decide how much personal effort/control is enough.

just my 2 cents

[Hewitt Huntwork]

I use prepared grooves because they give me something I would not come up with on my own, both compositionally and sonically. When you're a one man band, using sounds (loops, presets) made by others adds a little bit of a collaborative vibe to what you do.

If you have a unique voice as an artist you don't really have to concern yourself with how many people could steal your tabla sound.

[deastman]

To echo some of the sentiments expressed so far, I think that everything is fine, in moderation. An occasional loop here or there is no big deal. Need a live drum break to add texture to your song? Go for it! If you find a nice synth preset that works well in your song, use it! But if you find yourself "composing" entire songs from Loops For Acid libraries, you might have a problem.

That said, let me just step up onto my soapbox for a moment...

We seem to be in the midst of a general cultural shift towards laziness. This can be seen in many aspects of society. At my company (a large aerospace corporation), there have been a lot of discussions about the aging workforce, and the need to attract younger employees. They often point out that younger generations, just starting to enter the workforce, have a "what are you going to do for me?" attitude. They won't be willing to work 80 hour weeks and often give up nights and weekends, out of dedication to the job, the way older generations have traditionally done in my industry.

The same concept can be (and often is on KVR) applied to music. A lot of people on KVR compose music by drawing notes on a piano roll. They use precanned loops, free VSTis, and presets designed by others. "I don't play any instruments, and I want to make music NOW!" "What synth will make me sound like artist X?" "How do I make hip hop beatz?" "I write trance, but I don't understand how to use chords."

Okay, so you're a one person band. You aren't a drummer. I still think there's a huge difference between finding a local drummer to partner up with, and exclusively using commercial drum loop libraries.

Cut-up artist and turntabilists like Qbert and Tobin are obviously very talented. But how much more meaningful might their art be if they actually created the original source material themselves.

Again, there are no absolutes here. IMHO, the most important thing is to strive for artistic integrity.

[Toxikator]

The author's creativity matters to an extreme degree, but not because of how people will judge his skill, but because of the effect his creativity has on the listener.

For example: If you use the amen drum break in your song, most people of our culture and time would right away say "Oh, that's the Amen Break". So if you're using canned music, and your audience recognizes it, you run the risk of being stale.

In many ways, when using someone else's material in your own work, the difference between your own interpretive genius and your work being regarded as stale and unoriginal is like the difference between quoting an author and plagiarizing him.

If you quote an author, you're reinterpreting someone else's ideas to make a new work, and you audience recognizes that you are paying tribute to the author and mean no harm.

If you plagiarize an author, you're trying to pass off someone else's creativity as your own.

[danielmm]

We seem to be in the midst of a general cultural shift towards laziness. This can be seen in many aspects of society. At my company (a large aerospace corporation), there have been a lot of discussions about the aging workforce, and the need to attract younger employees. They often point out that younger generations, just starting to enter the workforce, have a "what are you going to do for me?" attitude. They won't be willing to work 80 hour weeks and often give up nights and weekends, out of dedication to the job, the way older generations have traditionally done in my industry.

deastman...I agree with your sentiments here but an 80 hour work week isn't dedication, it's stupidity. Nobody owes a company that much of your time...if it's your own business, go for it. So dont confuse ambition and hard work with makin money for the man!

I think using loops is ok. I use the occasional one but if I recognize a loop in a song or a commercial my first thought is "lazy" or "uncreative" so mixing it up a bit is important for me...but ya, cutting together a whole song from prepared loops isn't creative. Its just editing and most people could do it the first day if you showed them the basics.

Loops are just one of many tools for the musician to use... a carpenter wouldnt/couldnt use just a hammer to build a house, right?

dano

[deastman]

deastman...I agree with your sentiments here but an 80 hour work week isn't dedication, it's stupidity. Nobody owes a company that much of your time...if it's your own business, go for it. So dont confuse ambition and hard work with makin money for the man!

Partly this has to do with the established culture of my industry, and partly to do with the insanity of working for a government contractor. I'm somewhat buffered from all that because my department is really not a core part of what the company does. Among other things, I'm a 3D animator. I love getting paid to do stuff that I'd do for fun anyway. But one of the realities of producing 3D animation is that it takes a LOT of time, and you often have to work long hours just to meet deadlines. Ask almost anyone in the game industry or at a feature film animation studio, and you'll get the same answer. That said, if new hires are unwilling to put up with the hours, the culture may gradually start to change, is which not entirely a bad thing.

[opia]

I disagree
I think the new watermelon flavored pop-tarts are simply awful

[Hewitt Huntwork]

I own a lot of nice software for making music, and most of it just amazes me. Sometimes I wonder what a Mozart would do with RMX or what John Lennon would do with a DAW. I never have to wonder if music technology helps me make the best music I can; I know it does. Saying that an artistic methodology is "lazy" or "unoriginal" is immaterial. The only qualifier of art is its effect on the person exposed to it. We try to impose other rules on it because our understanding of it is fleeting.

Nobody decries the state of modern music as loudly as I, but my (or anyone's) cynicism can't exist without EMOTIONAL laziness. We accept the condemnation of modernity as common sense while we envy the happiness of those too stupid to recognize the state of decline in which they live.

Some people in this thread argue and condemn - while the things that truly matter gather dust.

[deastman]

Saying that an artistic methodology is "lazy" or "unoriginal" is immaterial. The only qualifier of art is its effect on the person exposed to it.

I disagree with this. Art serves two purposes, which are only loosely associated. On one hand, art is a product, served to consumers for their entertainment. Really, this aspect of art is totally irrelevant to the artist, except to the extent that they receive money or other forms of external validation as a result of the public consuming their art.

To the artist, the artistic process is what matters. Finished art is merely a byproduct of the act of creation. Think about it- if no one but you ever heard your music, would you still create it? Of course you would, because you enjoy the act of "making music". Starting from that premise, if your methodology is simply to take finished loops of fully produced music and layer them together, that seems a rather "lazy" approach to the process of musical composition, does it not?

[deastman]

I disagree
I think the new watermelon flavored pop-tarts are simply awful

At least they don't have any trans fat...

[opia]

I disagree
I think the new watermelon flavored pop-tarts are simply awful

At least they don't have any trans fat...

omg thats it.I am so tired of hearing 'at least it doesnt have trans fat.at least it doesnt have trans fat'
what am I supposed to do?? shovel down any new this that tastes like that thru the magic of chemical flavoring and chant 'at least it doesn't have trans fat'like some generican consumerist hare krishna-moon child?!?!?
stuff like this...watermelon poptarts... prepared grooves
it's bringin the whole world down man

[musikmachine]

I disagree
I think the new watermelon flavored pop-tarts are simply awful

At least they don't have any trans fat...

omg thats it.I am so tired of hearing 'at least it doesnt have trans fat.at least it doesnt have trans fat'
what am I supposed to do?? shovel down any new this that tastes like that thru the magic of chemical flavoring and chant 'at least it doesn't have trans fat'like some generican consumerist hare krishna-moon child?!?!?
stuff like this...watermelon poptarts... prepared grooves
it's bringin the whole world down man

I think you echo the sentiments of the kvr community right there in that there statement

For me it's all about the creativity.I love the process of creating something that didn't exist before.It's mine,i created it.Nothing else comes close to that.I think using prefabbed or prepared material is ok for beginners or if you don't have the instruments or the programming know how yourself.It took me while to come to the realise that there's a lot involved in music production,so i think it's ok to use prefabbed material if it gets you up and running.Use it as inspiration.you can always play it/program yourself when you've finished arranging your song or whatever.Anyway,don't producers use other songs as templates to build from?

[danielmm]

deastman...I agree with your sentiments here but an 80 hour work week isn't dedication, it's stupidity. Nobody owes a company that much of your time...if it's your own business, go for it. So dont confuse ambition and hard work with makin money for the man!

Partly this has to do with the established culture of my industry, and partly to do with the insanity of working for a government contractor. I'm somewhat buffered from all that because my department is really not a core part of what the company does. Among other things, I'm a 3D animator. I love getting paid to do stuff that I'd do for fun anyway. But one of the realities of producing 3D animation is that it takes a LOT of time, and you often have to work long hours just to meet deadlines. Ask almost anyone in the game industry or at a feature film animation studio, and you'll get the same answer. That said, if new hires are unwilling to put up with the hours, the culture may gradually start to change, is which not entirely a bad thing.

Aahhh, you love what you do. Theres really no issue for me then...but why don't you take 20-25 of those hours you would spend working for your company and start your own business!
Point taken though...
dano

[danielmm]

I disagree
I think the new watermelon flavored pop-tarts are simply awful

At least they don't have any trans fat...

omg thats it.I am so tired of hearing 'at least it doesnt have trans fat.at least it doesnt have trans fat'
what am I supposed to do?? shovel down any new this that tastes like that thru the magic of chemical flavoring and chant 'at least it doesn't have trans fat'like some generican consumerist hare krishna-moon child?!?!?
stuff like this...watermelon poptarts... prepared grooves
it's bringin the whole world down man

I think you echo the sentiments of the kvr community right there in that there statement

For me it's all about the creativity.I love the process of creating something that didn't exist before.It's mine,i created it.Nothing else comes close to that.I think using prefabbed or prepared material is ok for beginners or if you don't have the instruments or the programming know how yourself.It took me while to come to the realise that there's a lot involved in music production,so i think it's ok to use prefabbed material if it gets you up and running.Use it as inspiration.you can always play it/program yourself when you've finished arranging your song or whatever.Anyway,don't producers use other songs as templates to build from?

I think many on this forum work this way...I do. When I am coming up with an idea for a song, the last thing I need to be be doing is getting the HH notes just right in the midi editor. It's 2 different processes in the building of a song really. Theres the analytical aspect where we decide what plugs to use, what presets to start with, whether drums will be the inspiration for the song or a guitar part. Placing note in a midi editor etc, etc.
Then theres the creative part when you sit down at the piano or whatever your primary instrument is and pick out a melody...moving with the flow. It's a right brain /left brain thing. Almost impossible to do both at the same time.(for me anyway)
The point I'm making here is that the sooner I can bypass all that analytical stuff, the sooner I can get on with writing. A drum loop for example gets me writing sooner.
dano