Why are you using prepared grooves?

[herodotus]

A flanger pedal is an effect which modifies the sound you feed into it. A loop is a piece of prerecorded music. Thats a rather significant difference, IMHO.

Well sure. But why are we fetishizing these little bits of music? That is the question. I mean, for the most part these are little tiny segments of drum parts we are talking about.

If you don't drum; if you live in an apartment (thats flat for you limeys); if that apartment, like 99.99% of all apartments, is not soundproofed; if the little bits of music in question are things like this:

ex1;

or this:

ex2;

what difference does it make to anyone whether these little bits of music are loops, or sequenced parts and a sample set, or a real live recorded drum track, using a local studio and whichever cymbal basher you can talk into recording something?

I mean, does the pointless extra work involved in the latter give these simple parts an added frisson that only real live pointless frustration can give? Or is it an issue of 'purity' or the like?

Chances are this will not diminish your love of the song, but if it did, you would have nobody to blame for that but yourself.

Here again, you are still defining laziness in terms of the product- the finished piece of art and its impact on an audience. I am an artist. I am interested in the act of creating art. Whether people like the end product or not, whether they consider it lazy or not, is totally irrelevant. My whole premise was that a lot of people just getting into music these days are lazy and can't even be bothered to learn an instrument. They just want to paste together music created by others. Its basically "paint by numbers". Maybe they end up pasting together some nice songs, but that doesn't make them any less lazy for abdicating most of their role in the creative process.

Wow, this is a corker of a knot you have tied here!

In the first place, you have tied 'the finished piece of art' to its 'impact on the audience', and then denigrated both by comparing them to 'the act of creating art'.

But it is interesting to note that there are, alternatively, venerable aesthetic theories according to which the role of the artist is to serve the good of the work of art. (For a wonderful exposition of one such theory, see Flannery O'Connor's 'The Nature and Aim of Fiction'). And coming at the matter from this angle, there is a certain vanity in the refusal or reluctance to use loops when they would best get the job done. It can be seen when people use the example of the 'kid' using 'nothing but a bunch of prefab loops out of the box' and 'thinking that makes them a musician'.

This somehow seems an affront to 'real musicians' and their dedication to their craft. The possibility that playing with loops, even 'canned', 'prefab' loops might be educational, that it might constitute a novel sort of middle ground in the musician/listener dichotomy, that it is at worst a somewhat more wholesome activity for 'kids' than playing Doom, and at best a gateway to a larger world of music, is lost in this stern posture of admonition.

But you know what? All of the 'real' musicians I know (meaning all of the people I have met personally who have practiced and studied and developed their craft to a high level, and who have given up many other things to be musicians), all of these people LOVE the whole idea of loops. For some of them, income from making loops constitutes the only real money they can make off of their skills in this 'debased culture' that everyone loves to deplore so much. But of course, in the interests of purity, those 'kids' must be shamed back into playing their own 'original' parts.

sigh.

"Well, there is always that summer job in the bandshell next to the seals at the amusement park. But damn, how I hate those wide striped suits and straw hats!"

Regarding the "jamming" argument, I've jammed with friends before. The most fascinating aspect of jamming is the symbiotic feedback loop which occurs when you respond to what your friends are playing, and they in turn respond to what you are doing, and so on and so on... Its really quite a stretch to call it jamming when you go out and buy a CD of loops recorded in another place and time, by people you've never met, and who never heard the music you'll be marrying their performances to.

Regarding the 'jamming' argument, I have jammed with hundreds of musicians: Jazz, rock, rawk, progressive, folk musicians from Ireland and Indiana, Afro-cuban, world beat, and blues, over a span of 25 years, and many of them would have been well served putting in a few solid hours of practice with their instrument and a bunch of loops before trying to jam with others. Loops are the product of another mind. Learning how to interact with other musical minds is an important skill, and again, NOT EVERYONE HAS A MUSICAL COMMUNITY TO BE A PART OF. For such people, loops can be an important training tool, much better than any metronome, allowing them to approach their first open stage with a better sense of how to cope with different peoples timing and phrasing.

[deastman]

Lastly, I maintain that there is no such thing as a "lazy" artistic process. There is no predetermined amount of effort or discipline required, except what the artist must put forth to create what he or she wishes. Assuming that Paul McCartney has greater talent than I do, does that make him lazy because he doesn't work as hard as me to create? I have played guitar for over twenty years. I'm sure there are people who haven't been playing nearly that long that can play things I couldn't. Are they lazy because they can do more in less time? I have gifts I don't have to work at. Am I lazy compared to people who do have to work at those things? The answer to all of these is, of course, no.

I think we're really beating a dead horse at this point, so this will be my last response on the subject... The above comment reminded me of a little anecdote I'd like to share.

I have a friend who I've known since we were kids. He is an incredibly gifted musician- it seems like every instrument he picks up, he can quickly learn to play with a high level of accomplishment. The fact that he can effortlessly dash out a complex piece of jazz on the piano which would take me hours to approximate does not make him lazy. He obviously takes the time to learn his instruments, study music theory, and utilize his talents to their fullest. But then again, you wouldn't catch him just throwing together a bunch of prerecorded loops and calling it his own.

Anyway, I remember one time, years ago, when the two of us were recording together. He started to play in a drum part, triggering synth drum sounds from a keyboard. After 2 bars, I stopped recording and said "Okay, that sounds good. Let's loop that pattern and move on." He shook his head and told me that was the lazy way to do it. I started recording again, and he proceeded to literally play keyboard drums through the entire song. And you know what? Doing it his way sounded much better than my little loop.

[EoN604]

this is a silly old argument some people obsess over..the truth is it doesn't matter in the slightest..often sampled live beats provide atmospheres and grooves that are either impossible or incredibly tricky to produce with programmed single hits,or conversely loops will not always fit the situation..you dont have to do one thing or another, just choose the right sounds for your music, and leave the method postulating to purist tossers..

I 100% agree with you. I think the 'using grooves isnt real audio production' is often a beginners perspective. Until you realise at the end of the day it doesnt really matter. A sample is a sample, a groove is just a slighly fancier sample.

Maybe you shuoldnt use synth presets? Or for that matter, you shoudlnt be using synths! How can you call it your song when you're using a synth that someone spend years designing?! They did all the work!

PS. Why is this in the Music Theory section Fhangor? Learn to use a forum before complaining about grooves!

[deastman]

One last observation which I might not have made totally clear earlier on. Part of what bothers me is the sense of entitlement that so many people have these days, the expectation that everything should just be handed to you without exerting any effort. I know I'm really going out on a limb with this one, but in this particular case, it would go like: "I don't play drums. I don't want to learn to play drums. I don't know anyone else who plays drums. But I still deserve to have my music sound like it was played by an amazing, professional live drummer."

Remember, just because you *can* do it doesn't mean you *should* do it. Ah well, technology marches on, rendering humans obsolete...

[Toxikator]

That's absolutely retarded. You think you should only be allowed to create masterful music if you've EARNED the right to it? The only time you're allowed to have an amazing drum track in your piece is when you've studied drums?

I've heard some pretty snobby, stupid things said on KvR, but this immediately hits my top 5 list.

"You can't use loops because you have to EARN your sounds!"



This reinforces the argument that people who hate loops just feel threatened by the idea that they wasted time learning an unnecessary skill. You can spend 25 years learning to read and write sheet music and play piano, and then get replaced in 45 minutes by a piano roll. Your first reaction would be, of course, to try and find a way that you're not REALLY replacable. But you are.



"You don't DESERVE to have your music sound like it was played well!"

Unbelievable.

[Fhangor]

Learn to use a forum before complaining about grooves!

I haven't complained against grooves themselves. Or did I write that? I only wanted to know, why people use grooves. And it is a theoretical discussion cause I think both: grooves packages and own done grooves have a place in music which is done. But I prefer the harder way to make them by myself. But is it the better way?

[aaastronomer]

Hi all!

Can you tell me why you are using prepared grooves in your songs? Are you convinced of them being better than yours? Are they inspiring your work? Or aren't you able to create your owns?

I have looked over some groove libraries. But at last I have decided to make my own rhythms to my songs cause of the own touch . For me I am not able to say that the song is completely done by me if I use the prepared grooves. what is your opinion?

don't have the gear to do anything really new or well produced or bizzare or atmospheric or deeply glitched...

it's just me an my old lappie now that i've been downsized...and acid loops work just good for me (especially after i've chopped'em up and run them through the camel effects or dblue glitch or pluggo jr.)...of course, i am looking at the new roland v-synth xt...

[deastman]

That's absolutely retarded. You think you should only be allowed to create masterful music if you've EARNED the right to it? The only time you're allowed to have an amazing drum track in your piece is when you've studied drums?

I've heard some pretty snobby, stupid things said on KvR, but this immediately hits my top 5 list.

"You can't use loops because you have to EARN your sounds!"



This reinforces the argument that people who hate loops just feel threatened by the idea that they wasted time learning an unnecessary skill. You can spend 25 years learning to read and write sheet music and play piano, and then get replaced in 45 minutes by a piano roll. Your first reaction would be, of course, to try and find a way that you're not REALLY replacable. But you are.



"You don't DESERVE to have your music sound like it was played well!"

Unbelievable.

I can understand how it would come off sounding snobby, but truthfully I'm about as far from being an elitest as you can get. Perhaps you missed all the times in this thread where I wrote that I DON'T SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH USING LOOPS! I rarely look at life as a series of absolutes. Its all in the nuances and shades of gray. Personally, I suffer from abnormally slow reflexes and very poor motor coordination. Not to say that I'm in a wheelchair or anything, but I can't hit a beat in time to save my life. I've been playing keyboards for over 30 years, including 10 years of piano lessons. My timing has not improved. I've been playing guitar for 20 years, and I can still barely get my two hands to play the same note at the same time, let alone in sync with the song I'm working on. I'm just thankful I live in an era where I can use technology to correct my poor timing. And even though I may never be a virtuoso guitar god, I keep plugging away at it... because I believe that things which are hard to do are things which are worth doing.

In my previous post which you scoffed at, I'm using drum loops as an example of a general trend I've been noticing, in music and in many other aspects of society. I really don't particularly care if you like to jam with your buddy, Mr. Loop. Yes, go ahead and use a drum loop. I'm simply suggesting that sometimes its worthwhile to make the extra effort and do it yourself. Why should everything be handed to you on a silver platter?

To play devil's advocate, why stop with using loops? Hey, there's always those "SmartSound" libraries or whatever they're called for video editors... just pick a musical style and a duration, tell it the important cue points, and presto! You just wrote a new song! Sort of.

Rather than being a snob, if anything, I'm guilty of lacking the mental faculties to clearly and concisely express the point I'm trying to make. The last thing I meant to do was stand on my soap box and espouse the evils of drum loops.

[Toxikator]

Hey, there's always those "SmartSound" libraries or whatever they're called for video editors... just pick a musical style and a duration, tell it the important cue points, and presto! You just wrote a new song! Sort of.

Probably not a very good one.

[Topiness]

To play devil's advocate, why stop with using loops? Hey, there's always those "SmartSound" libraries or whatever they're called for video editors... just pick a musical style and a duration, tell it the important cue points, and presto! You just wrote a new song! Sort of.

If you really want to push it - there are always those royalty - free music libraries. Just choose a track - that's it.

But...

The way i see it, what's important is NOT what your starting point is, but the amount of creativity, craft, emotion, experientation, inspiration, or whatever you put in in moving from that starting point to the point where you have something that's your creation.

In your example, you're stating that there's a lack of creative input on behalf of the operator. But it's equally uncreative if i pick up my guitar and hammer out a load of hackneyed blues riffs - i've put nothing of myself in.

If i start with some loops, I COULD just loop them round, put some effects on it and call it a track. Little creative input from me, and the result's unlikely to be satisfying for me or worth listening to.

On the other hand, I could spend weeks moving from that starting point - manipulating and replacing sounds, deconstructing the rhythmic feel, adding my own sounds and progressions, carefully creating emotional builds, and releases...

Or I might not even spend that amount of time - I might just, in a burst of inspiration, wonder what happens if i layer that trance loop with a recording of kittens suckling, and find that it sounds incredible.

What I can't do is claim that I did it all by myself. But any musician who ever thinks that they created a track by themselves is talking through their ego. It's always a lie. If you ever see someone claiming that, then you can knock them down, because that's where the lying/cheating is taking place.

[Topiness]

I'm using drum loops as an example of a general trend I've been noticing, in music and in many other aspects of society.

I've had to warn my grandad about taking all his beefs with the world in general and combining them into one homogeneos rant. It's a sign of advancing years...

I agree that laziness is becoming a problem in society. But on the other hand, we also have lots of new and exciting ways of doing jobs and solving problems. Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone's being lazy, or just approaching a problem from a new angle...

[DWb]

If i start with some loops, I COULD just loop them round, put some effects on it and call it a track. Little creative input from me, and the result's unlikely to be satisfying for me or worth listening to.

I'd go so far as to say that if you DO just loop them and put some effects on them and maybe layer them in and out of the mix and somehow you do produce something that feels satisfyingly your own and is worth listening to, then you've put creativity in. The challenge in using loops is to produce something that's different from what the next loser with the same tools could produce - the difference could be that you slice the loops into tiny pieces, reconstitute them, play them backwards and add in a load of your own stuff, but it could just be (for instance) having a really really good sense of when and how to build up and release tension or how to add subtle effects that really make the loops work interestingly.

In general, one thing that always annoys me about these threads is that a lot of people seem to take the view that a tune is like a bucket that you can fill with creativity, and if you sample your drums or your synth riff, that means that 20% of the creativity has come from someone else, and so only 80% of the creativity can now come from you.

But if (for instance) someone writes a really great melody and words and records the vocals and guitar backed up by a prepackaged drum loop (that they've chosen to fit the music), then it seems silly to complain that they could have been more creative if they'd leant to play the drums, got some drums, learnt to record drums and so on and never actually got around to writing the song... basically, they concentrated on what they're good at and outsourced the rest, and got a good result because of it. They've written a great song, and I don't think you can require more than that of someone.

[DWb]

One last observation which I might not have made totally clear earlier on. Part of what bothers me is the sense of entitlement that so many people have these days, the expectation that everything should just be handed to you without exerting any effort. I know I'm really going out on a limb with this one, but in this particular case, it would go like: "I don't play drums. I don't want to learn to play drums. I don't know anyone else who plays drums. But I still deserve to have my music sound like it was played by an amazing, professional live drummer."

It's not about what you expect or what you deserve, it's about what you can do and what's available to you. If there's a free bus into town from outside my door and I take it instead of walking, it's not a sign that I expect everything to be handed to me on a plate and that I feel entitled to free transport wherever I want to go, it's a sign that I have better things to do with my time than spend three quarters of an hour each way trudging through dull suburbs every time I want to go shopping.

Maybe if I did walk from time to time, I'd see interesting stuff and enjoy it, but that's a rather different issue from my failure to do time consuming and unneccessary stuff indicating some sort of moral decay...

[krylenko]

I tend to come down on the anti-loop side of things, but frankly it's hard to see how loops are much different from the way Phil Spector, Joe Meek or Berry Gordy used to work (to use well-known and well-regarded examples).

Where the producer writes a tune, hires musicians, tells them what to play, and records the results. He may not play a lick, but he ends up with most of the money and fame, even if the record doesn't have his name on it.

Is that really so different from using loops? Hard to see how, especially now that top session musos release their own loop CDs.

I think a lot of this debate springs from the number of one-man/one-woman acts around (including me). If you're responsible for everything, you either want/need help in the form of loops, and so feel loops are fine, or feel responsible to create something new for each element, and so feel loops are a type of cheating.

One thing that intrigues me is the idea of doing things more in the old style. That is, not bother playing everything myself, but instead of using loops use other musicians as essentially session players, whether in a studio or in your personal studio. I've done a bit of this and it can be both very rewarding and way easier than doing everything myself. Of course, it does require access to decent players with reasonably close outlooks to yours (or an interesting session where they get to try new things!).

[Toxikator]

I think this debate goes like so: KvRians who want to write good music have better things to do than grab the crutch of "did it all myself"ism and just get on with it. If they've got a killer bassline and need a break, and hey presto! there's this awesome break sitting in a Groove Criminals folder on their HD, they drop it in, and don't look back.

Then there are the people who don't have clue one about songwriting, but fancy themselves songwriters because they can hammer out amazing-sounding drum loops in their tracks. These people are just KILLED by the idea that someone can circumvent essentially everything that constitutes their creative process and still have a high-quality track... and, failing any real ability to attack the track itself, instead attack the creative process, saying that it's "lazy" or "not right" because John Q. Brilliant doesn't spend 6 hours fine-tuning his kick and bass.

That's not to say that people who have very little conventional "musical" experience are less musicians... I'd just wager that anyone spending more time processing beats than writing melodies/harmonies is either a) not offended by the notion of loop use because they know full well that their music cannot be creatively expressed through precanned percussion, or b) get on KvR to complain because in spite of their efforts they can't seem to surpass the sound of a REXmix demo track.