KVR Audio

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:05 am

I have that record buried on my Rockbox and I was listening to it today... that stuff is awesome.

I was wondering if anyone had any tips regarding that use of accented chromaticism; listening to songs like "Tangled", "The Sun", or "Not Coming Home" employ some crazy jazz/funk and romanticist chromatic harmony.

It's mostly minor, but it seems like there's a lot of descending half-step motion, across both the tritone (V-Vb-IV) and the 7th (I-VII-bVII)*

the thing is, unlike the blues, where that sort of stuff is typically passing, the chords are heavily accented...

Is there some theory governing that kind of linear chromatic harmony? I love the sound but it's so over my head.

*Here, the roman numerals only refer to scale degrees, not chord qualities.

Km7 · Post by **Km7** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:37 pm

I don't know why no answers here.
Well, I think we just have deceptive resolution with chromatic voice leading to the subdominant. Actually, V7 may resolve anywhere. For example, #IV-7(b5) is one possibility for deceptive resolution. And if we are in minor, as you say, then VII seems to be a passing diminished chord to the diatonic bVII.

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:09 am

Toxikator wrote:It's mostly minor, but it seems like there's a lot of descending half-step motion, across both the tritone (V-Vb-IV) and the 7th (I-VII-bVII)*

I don't know the tune but that's tritone substitution at work.
The idea is that bII7 can substitute for V7 because they share the same tritone between the 3rd and 7th degrees (in C each has a B and an E). This substitute dominant has a chromatic root and resolves down a semitone to a diatonic target. The logic (dominant 7th, chromatic root, semitone above a diatonic target) also applies to bIII7, bV7, bVI7 and bVII7. Making a total of 5 substitute dominants (tritone substitutions) per key.
They usually take the Lydian Dominant chord scale.

Km7 · Post by **Km7** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:02 am

Right. Probably. Although I think the approach I wrote could be also valid. I don't know the context.

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:05 am

Nuffink: Could you explain how this tritone substitution works? It's really confusing but sounds awesome.

Km7 · Post by **Km7** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:08 am

Every dominant chord (also secondary and extended dominants) could be substituted with the same structure down a tritone. If you have Cmaj7 - G7 - Cmaj7 in C, you could substitute G7 with Db7. The two chords share the same characteristic tritone interval.
P.S.: I treated Vb as bV, do you mean that, or you mean inversion?

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:19 am

I just checked with wikipedia, that is indeed it. Cool, another trick for my sleeves!

BTW that article also pointed me to the "altered" scale and chord... so those are down for posterity.
you guys rock.

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:28 am

Toxikator wrote:I just checked with wikipedia, that is indeed it. Cool, another trick for my sleeves!

BTW that article also pointed me to the "altered" scale and chord... so those are down for posterity.
you guys rock.

You can play the altered scale over any dominant 7 chord providing you drop the perfect fifth from the chord. It's quite common in jazz to drop the fifth from any kind of seventh chord. The characteristic tonality of the chord is governed by the 3rd and 7th and isn't affected by a lack of a fifth. This gives you the opportunity to play many more exotic scales over your chords, or just leaves more room for the melody. Even if you don't get into such exotica the effect of the fifth being played in the melody while the fifthless chord still sounds is magical.

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:15 am

All awesome tricks.

Now to move on to mastering the 7th chord.

wrench45us · Post by **wrench45us** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:03 pm

the 7th chord is really the key to a lot of jazz voicings
including a lot of miagical 1 3 7 'tricks' with tritones and walking the cycle of fifths where the 3 and 7 notes flip to 7 and 3

cause it continues to build using sets of thirds
all the tricks for breaking down 7th 9th and 11th chords are just the root (or rootless if so preferred) and usually moving a major or minor 7th chord based on the 3rd degree or 5th degree or 7th degree of the 'original' chord
to create what could be notated as a slash chord
Cm7 == Eb/C Cmaj9 == Em7/C
Dm7 == F/D
G11 == F/G G13sus4 == Fmaj7/G
Fmaj9 == Am7/F

I'm in the process now of trying to learn to break down a fake book from the composite symbols to the slash chord equivalents -- I expect this will take a few months, but what else have I got to do. esp when you throw in the more open voicings
at least I would suggest learning the voicing with the 7th below the root in the right hand

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:58 pm

"slash" chords are just inversions.

And 9nth chords are just way too heavy for me. I don't care for the sound and I don't do that much jazz...

that's for years down the road \m/

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:11 pm

Toxikator wrote:"slash" chords are just inversions.

Only if the note below the / is a chord tone.

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:20 pm

... Doesn't it have to be?

I guess it could be a nonharmonic tone...

Km7 · Post by **Km7** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:49 pm

yes, in such case we have a hybrid structure and the bass note in is a tension (a note which is not 3 5 or 7 of the upper structure).
also, there may be polychords (two superimposed structures) but then they are usually written with a horizontal line _, not slash /. and the upper structure is actually an extension of the lower one.

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:58 pm

Well for example if you were to say C/F I'd classify it as a CFG suspended chord (4-3 suspension if it resolves to C)

But then again I don't get Jazz.

Is anyone here familiar with Maroon 5?