KVR Audio

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:01 pm

I have already posted the exact same question on reasonstation.net a few weeks ago. But everyone took me for a complete newby and were telling stuff I already knew. At some point I gave on on the thread and stopped thinking about oss sync. But then I saw it again in this forum and I had to ask the question again.

If you see this: I think this sound was done with osscillator sync... What does that mean? Ok, this is what I know: I use reason, and in Reason, the Subtractor synthethiser has... as you may have guessed, subtractive synthesis (or whaterver its called, but its subtractive)... OK so I know how to use this feater, set it to that mode, play with the phase knob wich offsets the second wave form created and then subtracts the original wave by that new one created... Therefore, easily creating PMW (or something like that, little pulse waves of which you can control the width with the phase knob)... This is all fine to me, I get that... What I don't get, is that the operation manual and people on the reasonstation forum are telling me that this can also give osscillator sync.

OSSCILATOR SYNCRONISATION, means that the 2 osscillator are syncronised... Which (correct if I'm wrong) are already synched by defaut cuse they both start at the same time... (unless maybe one is not on the same pitch... hmmmm can anyone care to also explain this to me please)...

So apparently, that little subtraction technique is what gives oss sync... Man!

I'm habing trouble asking the question because of this other thread I had on reasonstation. I hope someone here understand this.

OK, lets say your trying to find how to make a sound...
THen people could say:
Oh! Maybe Fm synthesi
Oh! Maybe Pulse width modulation
maybe phase offset modulation.
but then if someone says
This sound like osscilator sync, then I am lost, what is that...

apparently some synthetisers have that as an option. But reason subtractor doesn't, and its suppose to leave you with more flexibility by achieving it manually with the phase know... but I need to understand what off sync is before I can use it...

The operation manual says, see this patch in the rsn factory sound bank from the polyphony patches of the subtractor: SynchedUp for an example... the name says it, in this patch, the osscillators are synched... but there hundreds of patches that use the subtractive synthethis method with the phase knob and all.... but what makes THIS ONE IN PARTICULAR... SYNCHRONISED????

thanks for the help, and please excuse the fact that I could have made this a one line question but didn't

boin · Post by **boin** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:05 pm

I'm not sure if this is what you're asking about but osc sync usually refers to a technique where one oscillator (the synced one) has its waveform reseted by another oscillator (the syncing one). Every time a cycle of the syncing oscillator ends the waveform of the synced oscillator is forced to its initial level - regardless where it was in its own cycle.

Using the syncing oscillator at a frequency that is higher than the synced one introduces several steps/notches in the synced waveform resulting in a characteristic timbre. Also note that normally only the synced oscillator is heard - the syncing oscillator is only used to get the effect although some synths allow you to mix it if you want.

Probably the most typical sync sound is obtained by modulating the pitch of the syncing oscillator with an LFO or envelope.

There were some variations of this technique in the old analog synths - as there are different implementations in VSTi's - but this is the general idea.

Hope that helps (maybe).

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:40 pm

this is awsome, this is what I was looking for, now all I'm left with is figuring out how to do it in reason, cuse the operation manual does mention that its very possible to do it but that there is not botton that says: oss sync. unlike some synthtisers...

this is what it looks like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SubTractor ... ynthesizer

you'll see on the picture that it has 2 oss, 2 phase knobs which determine the the offset of the other wave created by subtractive synthesis or the other one: multiplication of wave forms (the x sign)... If I'm not mistaking, both oss are independent so one doesn't retrigger the other, you can easily do PWM with the (-) sign (subtracting synthesis) and the phase know which offsets the wave used for subtractic synthesis (man I'm tired of typing that), and the mix know is the balance between both oss's... do you have any idea of how the phase knob can be used to have this oss sync thing (I'm saying phase knob, cuse I'm almost sure that they talk about oss sync, in the operation manual) right after the paragraph about the knob....

thanks for the help

Drago · Post by **Drago** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:07 pm

interesting stuff!

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:06 pm

does anyone know who to sync an osscillator (synced oss) with another oss (the syncinc oss) using the subtractor in reason??

bjarnenorheim · Post by **bjarnenorheim** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:52 pm

You have to wait for Thor

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:02 am

who's Thor? what is Thor? is that someone's user name, sorry I'm quite new here

Adaerus · Post by **Adaerus** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:51 am

I do not use reason so I don't have access to Subtractor but looking at the pics on the wikipedia link you posted looks like subtractor doesn't have an osc sync option.
I have to point out that subtractive synthesis reffers strictly to the use of filters which are used to attenuate or remove (subtract) frequencies from the signal spectrum. The fact that subtractor's oscillators subtract when combined is not the subtractive synthesis. That is a way to create new waveforms by distorting them. It is similar to Ring Modulation, Frequency Modulation or Amplitude Modulation and Osc Sync which all are a way to create new waveforms from the basic ones.

Rusty Shackleford · Post by **Rusty Shackleford** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:55 am

AFAIK reason can't sync the oscillators in subtractor. I've never seen any trick that's been able to do it. Thor is a forthcoming synth that will be included in a future update.

funkadil · Post by **funkadil** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:56 am

Wait, so tell me what the X, -, and 0 are supposed to do on the oscs? You said subtraction? Are you certain?

bjarnenorheim · Post by **bjarnenorheim** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:57 pm

jee_pack wrote:who's Thor? what is Thor? is that someone's user name, sorry I'm quite new here

Thor is new Reason synth with osc sync

bjarnenorheim · Post by **bjarnenorheim** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:07 pm

funkadil wrote:Wait, so tell me what the X, -, and 0 are supposed to do on the oscs? You said subtraction? Are you certain?

multiply and divide with a hidden phase offset modulated oscillator - a cool kind of ringmodulator

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:37 pm

I've read it in the operation manual, it says: open the subtractor patch SyncedUp from the subtractor monophonic folder of the factorysound bank for an example of oss sync....

I know this is hard, especially for those who don't use reason... so far it looks like every reason user sort of overlooked that... but that patch is there for a reason, it uses one ossilator in normal mode and another oss with the same wave type, but the 2nd one used the (-) sign and the phase off set knob...

It does have a nice sound, but to tell you the truth, I don't know what the sound of syncing oss is like... what do you guys think about that.... what is special about sync oss? perhaps I can figure out this patch better, it does have a nice sound by the way, but not seing the waves, its hard to understand it... hey? what if I recorded that sound in sound forge, each oss at a time... if I looked at both sound with a gian zoom in soundforge, could this help? hmmm

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:28 pm

how do you make the cycle of an oscilator twice as long? is it by lowering it of an octave in pitch?

cuse I made this graffic that represents a synced oss being synced by a syncing oss wich has its cycle length modulated to become shorter and shorter (I'm not sure and this is why I was asking in my previous question... so for the moment I guess this is done by modulating the pitch of the syncing oss using an envelope wich raises the pitch of the syncing oss)... What I have in mind here is that the syncing oss being deduced in pitch goes faster and faster and therefor has a cycle that becomes shorter and shorter. And everytime it starts over, the synced oss starts over, the wave of the synced oss is represented by the red line and each vertical line represents the start of a new cycle.) So here's the picture...

correct me if there's anything wrong in this, and in my next post, I will write what I think can be done to emulate oss sync with PWM. But its only a theory, in wich I will guess that reducing the pitch of an oscilator by an octave makes his cycle two times longer... so please tell me if this is wrong, cuse if it is... then my theory is also completly off...

funkadil · Post by **funkadil** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:33 pm

bjarnenorheim wrote:
funkadil wrote:Wait, so tell me what the X, -, and 0 are supposed to do on the oscs? You said subtraction? Are you certain?
multiply and divide with a hidden phase offset modulated oscillator - a cool kind of ringmodulator

Thats what I figured. Hey Jee-Pack maybe you could give us a screen-shot of the patch?

synchronizing osscilators