Sitting the vocals in the mix.

[ATS]

I wanted to get some tips on this. I have a few tracks i'm working on currently, and I notice that even though I turn the volume to vocals down quite considerably, they still just "sit on top" of the mix, rather than blending in. I use reverb sparingly on most of the music I do, as most people i've worked with are in to hip hop and so it is never an option to drown the vocals in reverb. I did try and cut the low end (100hz on down) but it just still sits on top of the mix, not really blending in like it should. Is there any other things I should try, particularly using EQ to shape the sound in to the mix?

a good vocal compressor is important. I would think using compression on vocals is pretty much a must.

[bduffy]

Wow, awesome freakin' post guys! To the Bookmarks it goes!

Kim's method is very different from how I do it, but I have to try that sometime, see what happens!

[No name]

Hmm, after coming back to the song though, I think that the compression I put on it doesn't sound too bad after all. Maybe a bit too much still, but it sounds a heck of a lot better than it did before I edited it and posted it on here.

[Kim Lajoie]

I'd dip some more in the low mids (around 500Hz). Try to add some air, but be careful - if your mic hasn't got much dynamic range up there, you'll also be pushing up the noise floor as well. Not pretty. You can get some decent result buy using a high frequency expander to get the dynamic range back, but you have to REALLY know what you're doing. Reference some commercial rappers with similar voices to get a sense of what vocal tone to shoot for.

If you're serious about this, you should REALLY consider investing in a decent vocal condenser mic. Their dynamic range in the top end will allow you to do much more with eq up there (or conversely, allow you to do with with MUCH less mucking about).

The compression sounds fine. I think you've got a good handle on that.

-Kim.

[Kim Lajoie]

Also, try to put a bit more distance in the reverb. It's sounding a bit too much like a room. Increase the predelay (not more than about 70ms, or it'll start sounding like a slap). Reduce the send level if you have to. If your reverb allows you to set the size independently to the reverb length, try to increase the size while keeping the length the same (listen while you tweak! You might need to reduce the length parameter to keep it SOUNDING the same length as you increase the size!).

-Kim.

[bduffy]

Hey Kim, tell me: if you're mixing with the vocal/snare-first method, and you have a vocal that requires special effects, like walkie-talkie distortion, when would you do the effect?

Also: you say mix the vocal and the snare first, I assume you mean the snare's direct mics? But what about the ambient mics, where you can't isolate the snare, and will change how the snare sounds when mixed back in? What if you're going for a big, roomy drum sound?

[No name]

Also, try to put a bit more distance in the reverb. It's sounding a bit too much like a room. Increase the predelay (not more than about 70ms, or it'll start sounding like a slap). Reduce the send level if you have to. If your reverb allows you to set the size independently to the reverb length, try to increase the size while keeping the length the same (listen while you tweak! You might need to reduce the length parameter to keep it SOUNDING the same length as you increase the size!).

-Kim.

I did that on purpose, I tried to make it sound "roomy" with out sounding overbearing. But I think you are right, I pushed the wet signal too much on Ambience. I have the decay set very low so that there is hardly no tail, but obviously this makes it sound more boxy. I also have a delay on there, and i'm thinking of dropping the verb altogether and sticking with the delay as it sounds better. It's there but you can barely hear it, and this is what I aim for.

Speaking of reverb, any idea when they are gonna drop that dongle for CSR? I talked with some folks about it on a thread I created a few weeks back , and I think they said it should be very soon. Any idea when, cause I would love to give the demo a whirl. I'm in limbo right now with verb's, and decided to stick with Ambience because i'm used to it. I've got a few more reverbs to try, and CSR would be one of those.

Thanks!

[Kim Lajoie]

Hey Kim, tell me: if you're mixing with the vocal/snare-first method, and you have a vocal that requires special effects, like walkie-talkie distortion, when would you do the effect?

I usually add effects like that toward the tail end, after I've added some more instruments. With effected vocals (especially bandpass distortion) there's a fine line between sitting in the mix and popping out of the mix. Then again, with my style of music the effected vocals are SO effected that they count as different types of instruments.

Also: you say mix the vocal and the snare first, I assume you mean the snare's direct mics? But what about the ambient mics, where you can't isolate the snare, and will change how the snare sounds when mixed back in? What if you're going for a big, roomy drum sound?

If you can't isolate the snare, then it's going to be more difficult because you have to mix the entire drum kit at once. That's where experience really counts - because you already know what sound you're going for, and you know how to get it. You don't have to spend ages chasing your tail (ok, that snare sounds great... bring in the OHs and everything changes... etc). Usually I mix the drum ambience fairly low, and "design" each drum sound as a separate instrument. My style is on the "produced" end of the spectrum though, so I'm not often going for a "drummer in a room" sound.

If you're often mixing live drums with the intention to make them sound like live drums, then you should probably try a slightly different mixing process. Maybe start with the entire kit first, and then add the vocals. I mixed an EP for a rock band a few years ago, but I can't remember the details of what I did.

-Kim.

[Kim Lajoie]

Speaking of reverb, any idea when they are gonna drop that dongle for CSR? I talked with some folks about it on a thread I created a few weeks back , and I think they said it should be very soon. Any idea when, cause I would love to give the demo a whirl. I'm in limbo right now with verb's, and decided to stick with Ambience because i'm used to it. I've got a few more reverbs to try, and CSR would be one of those.

Thanks!

I don't know the date. IK are working on it (I'm a product specialist for eSoundz, so I can't really talk about stuff that's not publicly available yet). CSR's a great reverb. I use it on my own work all the time.

-Kim.

[bduffy]

Hey Kim, tell me: if you're mixing with the vocal/snare-first method, and you have a vocal that requires special effects, like walkie-talkie distortion, when would you do the effect?

I usually add effects like that toward the tail end, after I've added some more instruments. With effected vocals (especially bandpass distortion) there's a fine line between sitting in the mix and popping out of the mix. Then again, with my style of music the effected vocals are SO effected that they count as different types of instruments.

Also: you say mix the vocal and the snare first, I assume you mean the snare's direct mics? But what about the ambient mics, where you can't isolate the snare, and will change how the snare sounds when mixed back in? What if you're going for a big, roomy drum sound?

If you can't isolate the snare, then it's going to be more difficult because you have to mix the entire drum kit at once. That's where experience really counts - because you already know what sound you're going for, and you know how to get it. You don't have to spend ages chasing your tail (ok, that snare sounds great... bring in the OHs and everything changes... etc). Usually I mix the drum ambience fairly low, and "design" each drum sound as a separate instrument. My style is on the "produced" end of the spectrum though, so I'm not often going for a "drummer in a room" sound.

If you're often mixing live drums with the intention to make them sound like live drums, then you should probably try a slightly different mixing process. Maybe start with the entire kit first, and then add the vocals. I mixed an EP for a rock band a few years ago, but I can't remember the details of what I did.

-Kim.

Cool, thanks for that Kim. I go for a produced sound too. Not a "drummer in the room"; more like a Sonic Temple, Bob Rock-style, and I realize there's a buttload of processing (and sample replacement?) on records like that. Now, I was asking about that because I'm realtively new to full drum mixing techniques, and I'm only using drum modules like EZDrummer and BFD, So really, if I want to, I could artificially isolate the snare.

But I do want to do it as much like a recording studio when possible, so that I learn the techniques that have worked for so many years. I guess the modern, produced drum sound is very artificial, ultimately, isn't it? I usually have to do quite a lot of processing to get that big-but-not-boxy sound.

Anyway, sorry, I'm totally hijacking. Just very curious about all this kind of thing.

[stevieb19]

What a refreshing change to see an informative and interesting topic on KVR without the usual bitching.

Good work guy's and I shall be trying several of the tips listed here very soon.

I am definitely be trying Kim's idea for the mixdown. Nice one.

[Kim Lajoie]

Cool, thanks for that Kim. I go for a produced sound too. Not a "drummer in the room"; more like a Sonic Temple, Bob Rock-style, and I realize there's a buttload of processing (and sample replacement?) on records like that. Now, I was asking about that because I'm realtively new to full drum mixing techniques, and I'm only using drum modules like EZDrummer and BFD, So really, if I want to, I could artificially isolate the snare.

But I do want to do it as much like a recording studio when possible, so that I learn the techniques that have worked for so many years. I guess the modern, produced drum sound is very artificial, ultimately, isn't it? I usually have to do quite a lot of processing to get that big-but-not-boxy sound.

Anyway, sorry, I'm totally hijacking. Just very curious about all this kind of thing.

Yep, Sonic Temple is a very produced sound. You could quite possibly get that sort of sound by totally isolating each drum. There's not a lot of kit ambience. And... hear that snare! It's all about the snare!

The techniques that have worked in recording studios won't necessarily be the best techniques to use in a home computer studio, and vice versa. They're two very different environments. Remember that. You need to find your own methods that work for you. Maybe other people's methods (including mine) will help. Maybe other people's methods will help you find out what doesn't work for you.

Uh, it's 2am and I REALLY need to get to bed.

-Kim.

[music-tech]

Anyways, here is the link...

http://download.yousendit.com/829B49CA2CDDF8F2

please share your comments.

I downloaded and took a listen to this track. I'm just listening on my office computer now with the typical computer satellite/sub speakers setup (but I'm very used to them), but I get a pretty good idea.

Having done a lot of rap music myself, for this particular track, I would get rid of the reverb & delay you are putting on the vocals. Keep it dry and up front... most rap music is totally dry, or at least mostly. I could hear the "room" type ambience you added even on these little speakers. If you want to give the vocals some space, then it really needs to be an ambience type program that really does just create a bit of space and width but with no "room" type sound... pretty much no decay at all. Better yet, though, would be to use a really subtle flange or chorus type effect that is almost static so that you don't hear it moving. I really like the Roland Dimension D in the UAD-1 Powered Plug-ins for this type of thing, but I've also used really slow flange effects with very small depths and slow modulation rates. A flange or chours will make the vocal a bit bigger/wider sounding and give it some very subtle space without the room sound that you never really hear on any rap/hip-hop stuff.

Almost dry and up front and in your face is really what you want for hip-hop.

BUT, then you need to get the kick and the snare/clap sound up there as well. My OPINION is that you need to kill the big reverb thing on your snare clap and bring the volume up of up to the same level as the vocal. Then, tighten that kick up a bit as well and bring it up a bit as well. The kick, snare, and vocal should all be right up in your face.

Then, to spice things up in a few select spots in your song, trigger that snare reverb on just one snare hit and make the reverb decay even longer. You can use that to emphasize certain things. Don't overdo it, just 2 or 3 spots in one song is usually enough... only if it fits the song and the message though. I've done that with a few hip-hop things I've done, and they always love when you put little things like that in as long as you don't over use it or get to gimmicky with it.

Otherwise, I think the vocal isn't bad. Since there isn't much else happening in the music right now, you really won't have to thin up the vocals that much to make it fit, although I think you could pull a bit more low mids out of the (somewhere in the 300 to 500 range) and add in some air (around 12Khz or so, not too much lower or you'll bring out too much sibilance and then you'll need a de-esser).

Really, I think you just need to get that kick and snare slamming and more up front, without the verb, and put those two in the same spot with the vocal, and you'll be OK. If the artist likes that verb on the snare, then you may want to use a bit of pre-delay on the verb to separate it a bit from the dry snare sound, then bring up the dry sound a lot more while keeping the verb a bit more in the back.

Those are just my thoughts... remember that there is no right or wrong way, though, and in the end you need to do what sounds right to you and the artist for the song.

Steve

[bduffy]

Cool, thanks for that Kim. I go for a produced sound too. Not a "drummer in the room"; more like a Sonic Temple, Bob Rock-style, and I realize there's a buttload of processing (and sample replacement?) on records like that. Now, I was asking about that because I'm realtively new to full drum mixing techniques, and I'm only using drum modules like EZDrummer and BFD, So really, if I want to, I could artificially isolate the snare.

But I do want to do it as much like a recording studio when possible, so that I learn the techniques that have worked for so many years. I guess the modern, produced drum sound is very artificial, ultimately, isn't it? I usually have to do quite a lot of processing to get that big-but-not-boxy sound.

Anyway, sorry, I'm totally hijacking. Just very curious about all this kind of thing.

Yep, Sonic Temple is a very produced sound. You could quite possibly get that sort of sound by totally isolating each drum. There's not a lot of kit ambience. And... hear that snare! It's all about the snare!

The techniques that have worked in recording studios won't necessarily be the best techniques to use in a home computer studio, and vice versa. They're two very different environments. Remember that. You need to find your own methods that work for you. Maybe other people's methods (including mine) will help. Maybe other people's methods will help you find out what doesn't work for you.

Uh, it's 2am and I REALLY need to get to bed.

-Kim.

Thanks again, Kim. Sometimes you just have to realise that you gotta do it your way, but trying out the different techniques you pick up here really helps, especially when you're in a tough spot. You let me know when your book comes out.

(Sorry for hijacking!)

[No name]

Interesting thoughts! I throw all types of gimmicky things in too . The reverb on the snare I put there for dramatic effect, but I should know better than to throw touch ups on something that is nowhere near done to begin with. I think i'll try out your example, and i'm digging the long tail reverb on the clap/snare trick, I used it a lot back some time ago. I usually threw it on the last snare of the last bar before it goes into the chorus, as it once again enhances the dramatic effect. I'm having difficulty with the drum line, it's being stubborn when I try to compress it. I like to get my drums down to about -8 or -10db, but have them thump still. These ones are pushing -3 or -4db easily, and I just don't like that. It actually might be partly the reverb's fault. Now that I think about it, I could have stuck it on there after the comp and never even noticed.

As for the verb on the vocals, I probably overdid the reverb/delay. I put a bit of both on there. Tried to use the reverb to give a sense of space, but I very well may have over done it, i'll check again when my ears are fresh. I admit that i'm very weary of using any sort of chorus/flanger/phaser on my vocals, mainly because i've never done it before. I'll also give the EQ more of a dip in the lower-mids as you suggest to see what happens. I dipped at around 500hz, but I do EQ'ing very catiously as i'm not entirely accustomed to doing it. I'm used to more drastic changes in sound, and EQ is about being subtle.

I suppose that's it for now, a very enlightening thread this one is!

My main priority is to get them drums up there though, and finally get a bass line going too, so i'm gonna see what I can do.