6th Chords: Is it just me...

[Toxikator]

...or are they exactly the same thing as 7th chords, but in first inversion?

A M6 is a m7 in first inversion, a m6 is a half-diminished 7 in first inversion... is there something I'm missing to these chords? Why do we define them as 6ths?

[JumpingJackFlash]

...or are they exactly the same thing as 7th chords, but in first inversion?

A M6 is a m7 in first inversion, a m6 is a half-diminished 7 in first inversion... is there something I'm missing to these chords? Why do we define them as 6ths?

I've just had a quick play around, and you know something; you're right!

I never really though of them like that before, but it works.

(The Major 6th is the same as the minor 7th of the key a minor 3rd lower in 1st inversion.
The minor 6th is the same as the half-diminished 7th of the key a minor 3rd lower in 1st inversion).

[Toxikator]

Right. It occured to me because in figured bass, you notate 7th chords in first inversion as like V65. The 6-5 indicates that the chord is built from a 6th and a 5th (and a third) and I thought: That sounds EXACTLY like a 6th chord!

[krank]

They're defined as such due to the function of the root.

[Toxikator]

Hm. How do they function, then, if not as 7th chords?

[krank]

Hm. How do they function, then, if not as 7th chords?

Usually as root/tonic.

[Toxikator]

Strange.

[egbert]

Hm. How do they function, then, if not as 7th chords?

Often you get something like Cma6/9 as a rather cloying sounding tonic chord in the key of C - it has that quartal character because it is an inversion of E Q5 (ie E A D G C ).

If you play a four or five voice chord like that instead of a simple triad it will more readily support melodic improvisation - ie soloing - over the top. The other time you see sixths is in progressions - eg My Funny Valentine where you get a moving voice playing the sevenths and then the sixths on a single root.

[Rolphy]

Am / C is C6

Also the notes in the melody over the bass note used can change a chord name...


So if you play - Am -> G -> F

whilst holding whilst not changing the note of E thoughout the progression you get

Am -> G6 -> Fmaj7

using the following notes on your keyboard you'll get an idea...

A - C - E
G - B - E
F - C - E

or

A - C - E
G - B - E
F - A - E
There's no harm in dropping notes as the idea of theory and composing is that you don't have to include every note in the implied by the name of a chord.

[Toxikator]

Except why do we call it G6 and not E in first inversion? Why classify it as a 6th chord? Seems pointless.

[VicDiesel]

Am / C is C6

Spelled out in notes, yes. However, the harmonic function is completely different.

If you play the eternal G-A-Bb-A-G riff on a C chord, there is nothing that implies that harmony flips between C-Am-C7-Am-C.

Not to mention that in classical theory there are a bunch of 6 chords that don't have a 5th. Hm. wikipedia defines the Neapolitan Sixth as an inversion. Yeah, I guess you can look at it that way, but I'm sure there are theorists who don't view it that way.

Where is de la Motte when you need him most. I know, at home, and I'm at work.

Victor.

[Toxikator]

The Neapolitan 6th is an inversion of the Neapolitan; it's most common inversion, which is why it has earned a special name. Be that as it may it is still a bII chord.

6th chords without a fifth aren't even 6th chord. CEA is just ACE in first inversion; CEGA is just ACEG (the 7th of the aforementioned chord) in first inversion.

I don't mind extended harmony but come on. You can't possibly expect to reanalzye and reclassify every chord as having a different harmonic function based solely on which note is in the bass?

CEA is a vi in first inversion.

As to the G A Bb A G over C, there isn't an implication that the harmony changes at all to indicate a 6th. It may not go C-Am, but what does it mean to even classify it as a C-C6? what makes anyone certain it's not just a nonharmonic tone (here, accented passing between the C and C7)?

Just because two notes are sounded together doesn't mean that we need to reclassify our harmonic structure to include some ridiculous extended chord.

Consider the progression
C C D D
E E E F
G A A A

You could analyze it as CM, C6, Asus4 (1inv), Dm... or you could just call it CM, Am (1inv), Dm with a retardation in the middle voice. Just because D E and A sound at the same time doesn't mean they constitute some kind of chord.

[krank]

Harmonic analysis is not like math; there's no definite answer. Some would argue that it isn't really imortant to understanding music anyway.

[Toxikator]

Harmonic analysis is not like math; there's no definite answer.

To some extent this is true.

Some would argue that it isn't really imortant to understanding music anyway.

Show me those people. I'd say in any conventional western European or American music (including Classical, Romantic, Jazz, and Blues) it's the single most important characteristic of the style of music.

[krank]

Harmonic analysis is not like math; there's no definite answer.

To some extent this is true.

Some would argue that it isn't really imortant to understanding music anyway.

Show me those people. I'd say in any conventional western European or American music (including Classical, Romantic, Jazz, and Blues) it's the single most important characteristic of the style of music.

This place is full of them. Even some (albeit few) jazz players play by ear only.

The fact that most, if not all, 'conventional' music does indeed have harmonic structure isn't equivalent to a general agreement that such means such in analytical terms.

Take 'blues' for an example: understanding harmonic analysis isn't exactly a prequisite to playing/reproducing/improvising it - which is what I meant by the term 'understanding'.