Here's one for the ages

[jopy]

i know blues better than country, and neither particularly well, but i have to say, there's no way to use conventional theory to "get" it, because most traditional bluesmen knew nothing about european theory outside of some simple chord forms. they just weren't working that way. to get blues, as a system, you need to get a bunch of records and just listen. that's probably true for most styles, to a certain extent, but it's especially true for blues. for jazz music there's much more of a theoretical structure that the players are consciously using, but to paraphrase miles davis, trying to use western theory to understand the blues is like wearing a tuxedo into a boxing ring.

[Toxikator]

classical theory can't make sense of it, but blues theory can. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the blues is just about "winging it", there's an incredible complexity of theory that governs it, and that governs country, southern rock, and other similar styles as well.

[jopy]

absolutely, the blues is a well-developed discipline and calls for a disciplined approach to study. i thought you were asking for how the blues would be studied in classical terms, and i think that's a futile exercise. but i absolutely 100% agree that playing blues properly requires fully understanding the conventions and rules of the genre and spending hours learning licks and patterns from experts--there's an enormous oral and aural history of how to play blues properly. i just think classical theory and even the conventions of sheet music are not great tools for unlocking the methods of most blues players.

[Toxikator]

I'm not after classical theory, I'm after blues theory. Any insights at all into "what makes it tick" are greatly appreciated; I've studied some blues but I just can't make sense of it.

[jopy]

and i guess what i was saying is, you just need to play with albums every day, over and over again, starting by copping licks and then developing your own. that's not winging it, it's study--it's ear training of the highest order.

edit: i should add that although jazz is much more theoretically based, this is pretty much the advice i've received from every jazz musician i've ever studied with. the cerebral part is important, crucial, and incomplete. it takes listening. i think in the blues the ears are especially important to getting it.

[Toxikator]

yeah but it's not theory. Just because you can create clever amalgams and imitations doesn't mean you understand the mechanics. I can probably BS some blues licks, but I'd really like to UNDERSTAND what I'm doing, which opens up a whole world of blues composition, including the country styles that I'm also interested in. Theoretically, the two are linked (as is much of rock), but in practice they're different. Copying the practice won't elevate your musical ability.

Problem is I've spent a lot of time studying engineering and a lot of time studying classical music, but not so much time on the Blues and on Jazz (though I've learned a lot about Jazz from this forum and a bit about the blues along the way from certain professors).

[Toxikator]

As an example, you can't learn Jazz from a book alone, but you CAN get the fundamentals. Once someone explains to you that

a) the fundamental chord in Jazz music is the 7th

b) the 3rd and 7th define a chord, therefore...

c) the 5th, as well as 9ths, 11ths, or 13ths, can be added, removed, sharped, and flattened to taste as they're nothing more than color.

d) the dominant chord is the most heavily altered but any chord can be altered

e) extending chords is a form of dissonance which is generally resolved by shrinking voices (11ths altered to 9th unaltered to 7th, etc.)

you can't PLAY jazz using that knowledge but suddenly what you play makes sense to you.

THAT'S what I'm after for the blues. general principles, theories, or ideas that govern the chromaticism, so I can make SENSE of the licks and chords I recognize and learn to use them in new ways.

[nuffink]

The basic form of blues is built around a twelve bar structure using just three different chords. Those chords are all (dominant) 7 chords. I7, IV7 and V7. The chord progression goes...

I7 - I7 - I7 - I7
IV7 - IV7 - I7 - I7
V7 - IV7 - I7 - I7

You play the blues scale (I, bIII, IV, bV, V, bVII) over these changes. It's the dissonances caused by this scale being played over the diatonic dominant chords which define the blues.

Over the years many variations of the basic structure have been used. Jamey Aebersold lists 17 here... http://www.jazzbooks.com/miva/documents ... _blues.pdf
On top of this there's more than one blues scale and 8 bar, 16 bar and other variations on the theme.

[Toxikator]

Apart from the bit about the dom7s, I actually knew a good deal of that. What concerns me more (especially in consideration of country western) is how the blues scale mutates, incorporating the nIII, nVII, and M6... both melodically and in a passing chordal sense.

Though I should say I do appreciate y'all trying to help me out with this one

[jopy]

i appreciate what you're trying to do, but i think most blues players would state rather explicitly that they don't think in terms of general principles. at least the people i know who play the blues seem downright hostile to the idea of using general principles. i don't know if you've ever heard or read interviews with classic blues players, but they're generally not prone to explain what they're doing in a formal way. i suspect that's because they just aren't thinking that way.

there are certainly conventions worth noting on top of the good quick summary nuffink gave you (e.g., using major pentatonic scales with an added flat third, substituting the IV on top of the I chord as part of a rhythm lick, using the diminished i chord as a lead into the I chord, eliding from either the flatted third to the major third or from the flatted fifth to the perfect fifth to create a resolution).

i hope this isn't sounding unhelpful, because i really do mean it when i say that "getting it" with the blues is a completely different animal theoretically, and is a matter of just getting your hands dirty.

[JumpingJackFlash]

THAT'S what I'm after for the blues. general principles, theories, or ideas that govern the chromaticism, so I can make SENSE of the licks and chords I recognize and learn to use them in new ways.

Ok, the following is taken from a rather long-winded journal article I once had to read. Let me first say as a kind of disclaimer, that although I have dabbled in the blues here and there, I wouldn't really say it's my thing.

The 12-bar blues

In its basic form is as follows:

Code: Select all

I  I  I I7
IV IV I I
V7 V7 I I 

One chord per bar. - In other words, a plagal cadence followed by a perfect cadence. Various forms of this exist. Note, the 7 means dominant seventh in all cases.

Now, we have some rules that allow you to substitute certain chords for some of the above chords.

1) Any chord can be replaced by two copies of itself, each lasting half as long. If the original chord was a dominant seventh, the second of these chords is a dominant seventh also. (Eg. I7 can be replaced by I-I7).

2) Any chord can be replaced by a copy of itself followed by its subdominant, each lasting half as long. (Eg, I can be replaced by I-IV).

3) Where you have any standard original chord (not a seventh) followed by a dominant seventh chord, the first chord may be replaced by the dominant seventh on the dominant of the second chord (which remains as it was). (Eg. IV-I7 may be replaced by V7-I7). If the original dominant seventh is major, the dominant seventh on the dominant may be minor, however if the original dominant seventh is minor, the dominant seventh on the dominant MUST be major.

4) Any chord (or dominant seventh) preceded by its dominant seventh can be replaced by a chord of its flattened supertonic followed by itself. If the initial chord is a dominant seventh, the flattened supertonic is also a dominant seventh. (For example, V7-I may be replaced by bII-I).

5) Where you have three copies of the same major chord consecutively (not a seventh), the second chord may be replaced by the minor chord on its supertonic, and the third chord replaced by the minor chord on its mediant. (Eg. I-I-I may be replaced by I-ii-iii).

6) Where you have two copies of the same chord consecutively (not a seventh) followed by either a major chord on its dominant, a minor chord on its supertonic, or a minor seventh chord on its leading-note, the second original chord may be replaced by its diminished seventh on its sharpened root. (Eg. I-I-V may be replaced by I-#I°7-V).

7) Any major chord (not a seventh) may be replaced by its major seventh, minor seventh, ninth or thirteenth.

8 ) Any dominant seventh may be replaced by its flattened ninth, flattened tenth, or dominant seventh with augmented 5th.

9) Any minor chord (not a seventh) may be replaced by its minor seventh or minor 6th.

10) Any minor seventh chord may be replaced by its minor 9th, or half-diminished seventh.


There. Like I said above though, this is just me scribbling down a few things from an old journal article. I hope it makes some sense, please correct me if I'm wrong, and if you need me to read the thing more thoroughly, tell me.

Source:
Steedman, Mark J., 'A Generative Grammar for Jazz Chord Sequences' in Music Perception Fall 1984, Vol. 2, No. 1, pp 52-77.

[Toxikator]

It's very very cool stuff. A lot of it (like the #I/bII substitutions for V) are based on the tritone substitution (cool stuff), and the bit about the dominant 7th of a dominant 7th is the use of seconary dominants... but it's cool to see that these principles are applied to the blues.

I try to build up a chordal and melodic vocabulary (it makes it easier to get my ideas down) and it's cool to see romantic and newly-found jazz progressions of mine used in this blues context.

I appreciate it; hey, can anyone recommend a good book? I've got a wonderful two-volume on classical and romantic (and contemporary postmodern) composition, but it doesn't touch much on American music (ie Blues, Jazz, country) and I'd love to get to studying.

I don't care how much it costs, because I have plenty of textbook money I'm not using

[nuffink]

The 12-bar blues

In its basic form is as follows:

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I  I  I I7
IV IV I I
V7 V7 I I 

Sorry Jack, that simply isn't true. The blues have been based upon dominant sevenths at least since Satchmo was a kid. You seem to have an inbuilt mistrust of anything other than triads but it's impossible to talk about the blues without 7th chords. It's implicit.

[nuffink]

...and V7 - V7 - I - I? Not likely.

[Toxikator]

Agreed. However, I HAVE seen the blues approach played without the 7th. This is more common in rock stylings thereof... but nonetheless valid.

The progression I was always taught was:

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I (IV or) I       I        I
IV        IV      I        I
V         IV      I  (V or)I

Though that's in terms of root notes and not actual chord characters, which evidently are dom7s