Chords in a key for beginners

[nuffink]

I don't think you can say that the harmonic and melodic minor scales are used for harmony and melody respectively.

[Toxikator]

You SORT of can. The harmonic minor scale is so named because the scale was modified to include a leading tone for harmonic reasons, so I guess in that sense it's designed to be used when harmony is a factor.

The melodic minor is modified from the harmonic minor to include the M6 so that it's easier to sing (the m3 is a tough interval), so in that sense it's used primarily when a lead melody is being used.

Of course, the truth of the matter is that the melodic minor, in modern context, is the rarest of all forms, and it's far more common to see an interchange of the harmonic minor and natural minor.

[nuffink]

You SORT of can. The harmonic minor scale is so named because the scale was modified to include a leading tone for harmonic reasons, so I guess in that sense it's designed to be used when harmony is a factor.

The melodic minor is modified from the harmonic minor to include the M6 so that it's easier to sing (the m3 is a tough interval), so in that sense it's used primarily when a lead melody is being used.

Of course, the truth of the matter is that the melodic minor, in modern context, is the rarest of all forms, and it's far more common to see an interchange of the harmonic minor and natural minor.

If it were true most homophonic music in a minor context would consist of a melody in the melodic minor scale played over a chord formed from the harmonic minor scale. It isn't.

As for the rest I suggest you do a bit more research on the harmonic uses of the melodic minor scale since it forms one of the more important tangents in modern harmonic theory.

[Sascha Franck]

Thing is, once in minor scale land, things tend to get complicated.
In fact, there's a lot of situations when all three most common minor scales (natural, harmonic, melodic, and probably even dorian in addition) are used in even a simple sounding tune.
Most common major scale chord progressions aren't even halfway as complexed.

Anyways, whenever you start with minor chord progressions, I highly recommend using natural minor, which equals the 6th degree of a major scale (so it's aeolian as well). Just remember to probably use a sharped 3rd on the dominant chord and be set for a good start.

Example: *something* in A min. Just treat everything as in C maj. Everything but the E. Which, in C maj would be an E min. Raise the 3rd (G to G#) and be done.
Of course, this would now have to be treated as the dominant of harmonic minor, it could as well be treated as melodic minor - and there's even some more options. Forget about all of them, seriously! Learn that most minor roots often function *exactly* as the 6th degree of a major scale and only adjust things once it comes to the dominant.

You may want to learn everything else later on as well, but this is a nice key to start out with minor chord progressions.

[Sascha Franck]

As for the rest I suggest you do a bit more research on the harmonic uses of the melodic minor scale since it forms one of the more important tangents in modern harmonic theory.

Yeah, but seriously, when it comes to melodic minor in a "modern" context, things really get messy.
Just one example (because I don't like hijacking this otherwise really nice thread): Very often you will be told that on the 7th degree of a melodic minor scale you'll find the altered chord/scale. And while, from a pure technical point of view, this is fine (so it actually enables you to practice altered scales while practicing melodic minor), from a functional point of view it's utterly wrong. Building up a chord in thirds on the 7th degree of melodic minor would result in a min7/b5/b9/b11/b13 chord. "b11"?!?!? What the heck!
Following that, the scale would be a locrian scale with a flatted 4th (just the reason why altered scales were called "superlocrian" for quite some time).
This is when things just don't work anymore. Our ear will perceive the flatted 4/11 as a freaking major third. So, what about our 9th? All of a sudden there's two of them! WTF? And there's no 11, 5 or 13 anymore but you're losing one of them, too!
Really, incorporating melodic minor (and partially harmonic minor as well) into our all so shiny working "build up scales in seconds and chords in thirds on each degree of a scale, then we'll give them a name and function" concept simply will fail all of a sudden.

I tell you, minor scales suck, both from a learning and performing point of view. Big time You can usually just get away fine with the tonic major scale on whatever major chord progression. I could fake a jazzy solo right away on my first jazz session. Not so with minor scales. Playing plain A natural minor over an E7 simply doesn't cut it anymore. And let's not even start talking about HM5, altered or whatever you may use for dominants. It sucks. Let alone that on guitars, the fingering patterns for anything but a major scale are really nasty as well.

Errm, ok, sorry for hijacking this thread.

[nuffink]

Yeah, but seriously, when it comes to melodic minor in a "modern" context, things really get messy.

Only if you chose to see the minor scales as some kind of homogenous whole. If you use them as grab bag of modal interchange possibilities they make perfect sense. Who cares if the most common minor progression ii-7b5, V7alt, i-maj7 comes from harmonic, melodic, either. The whole concept of homogenous minor, major or any other scales has become a bit redundant.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Ok guys, I was just trying to keep things (fairly) simple

[Toxikator]

Don't listen to them. They play jazz, the minor scale is like a f**king HYDRA. It's not nearly that complicated in anything classically rooted

I probably use a major scale once every 25-30 songs. I just don't touch it. It's all Aeolian, Harmonic minor, Phrygian, and Locrian interchange (and I guess Hungarian minor if you want to be like that).

[Km7]

it is essential to use your senses and intelligence.. don't just memorize those things - they should be understood, explored...

[flippya2000]

Code: Select all

A  major    A   C#  E
B  minor    B   D   F#
C# minor    C#  E   G#
D  major    D   F#  G
E  major    E   G#  B
F# minor    F#  A   C#
G  major    G   B   D

Why is the highest note in the D-Major/4th chord flattened? I understand that the Beatles/+others flatten the tonic of the 7th chord to make it sound less dissonant - Is it the same for the 4th chord?

The reason I ask is coz the 3rd chord (C# minor) & 5th chord use G# which is in the A-Major chord, ie they follow the rule that if the note is in the scale it should be used in the chord, whereas the 4th (& 7th) chord break this rule (ie, use G instead of G#) - I wouldn't be asking this if the code above showed the 4th chord to be: D-F#-G# OR if the 3rd & 5th chords used a flattened G

I'd like to know if there is a definite rule for when to flatten the G# note in the above chords?

[JumpingJackFlash]

Code: Select all

A  major    A   C#  E
B  minor    B   D   F#
C# minor    C#  E   G#
D  major    D   F#  G
E  major    E   G#  B
F# minor    F#  A   C#
G  major    G   B   D

Why is the highest note in the D-Major/4th chord flattened? I understand that the Beatles/+others flatten the tonic of the 7th chord to make it sound less dissonant - Is it the same for the 4th chord?

The reason I ask is coz the 3rd chord (C# minor) & 5th chord use G# which is in the A-Major chord, ie they follow the rule that if the note is in the scale it should be used in the chord, whereas the 4th (& 7th) chord break this rule (ie, use G instead of G#) - I wouldn't be asking this if the code above showed the 4th chord to be: D-F#-G# OR if the 3rd & 5th chords used a flattened G

I'd like to know if there is a definite rule for when to flatten the G# note in the above chords?

I suspect this was a typo on cyniq's behalf.

A major, as you correctly said, has a G# in. Therefore, chord vii would normally by G# diminished, (G# B D), but as mentioned, you could flatten the G# to make G major.

Chord IV would be D major (D, F#, A) - Note, there is no G (or G#) at all in a D major (or minor) chord. (The traid is always built on 3rds).

[flippya2000]

I suspect this was a typo on cyniq's behalf.

A major, as you correctly said, has a G# in. Therefore, chord vii would normally by G# diminished, (G# B D), but as mentioned, you could flatten the G# to make G major.

Chord IV would be D major (D, F#, A) - Note, there is no G (or G#) at all in a D major (or minor) chord. (The traid is always built on 3rds).

Skeen, so the 4th chord was a typo, that makes sense now. Cheers for the info JumpingJackFlash

[Cyniq]

Yep, a typo. I'll fix it. The last thing you want when dealing with theory is a typo. Sorry for any frustration caused.

[flippya2000]

The last thing you want when dealing with theory is a typo.

Indeed! I find theory hard enough as it is! It's all good now it's corrected

Sorry for any frustration caused.

What frustration?

[Molasar]

Dear KVRers...

This has got to be the most stupid question of the century, but please bear with me. I am new to music theory and I need some advise (help), etc...

I am using Cubase SX3 and some other sequencers, etc.

Now, this is the problem:

I am writing a song in the key of G Major. All ok here.

Say, for example, I create 4 measures and a chord progression here. From G Major I can correctly have the following (I think?):

Measures:

1 Em
2
3 C
4 Em

All fine here (I think). Now the problem:

A) Taking into account the whole song is in G Major, what "correct" single notes can I have in the first measure (being that the first measure is Em chord)? How do I know which "correct" notes I have available? I don't know if I'm making sense here. I am trying to make a lead melody, but am all confused about how notes in the first measure map to the Em chord (and G Major key?) If someone explains the techinque or principle, I'll figure the rest of the measures out.

B) Is there some program, etc. you guys know of which tells me scales, chords, etc.? Something like: Select Key --> Program shows scale and correct chords for that key. Select Chords --> Program shows "correct" notes?

C) I've tried The Palette, but it's still too difficult for me and the tutorial on it is WAY too complicated... any know of a layman's tutorial for The Palette?

Thanks!

Any input greatly appreciated.

Mike