Shows us Theory Newbies how to implement chords.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Can't you get it? - I'm not talking about function. It's a matter of nomenclature.

Which you keep getting wrong.

Not wrong, - different. There's a big difference.
When it comes to things like this, there is no right and wrong. I use one system, you use another.

[Toxikator]

It is my medical opinion that it is not Lupus.

There's a REAL problem of understanding here: JJF, your analysis rightly notates the ii with the "7" because the diatonicism is implied, and of course understood by the lack of accidentals in the accompanying score.

Nuffink's totally got you, though, when discussing the harmony outside of that context making a claim like "what kind of 7th don't matter" is pretty silly.

The problem here (AS ALWAYS) is just one of background/academic tradition. In JJF's tradition, when dealing with that kind of score, you just notate 7ths as diatonic. In Nuffink's, where the nondiatonic 7ths are common, the notation system is figured to specify the type of 7th quite clearly.

Before I get dragged into this all (and I am very sure I will), let me just say that through the argument the meaning of the "7" in that analysis has become ABUNDANTLY clear.

[laputa_sync]

could you both stop posting about non-bento related stuff in the bento and fish forum...

[Sascha Franck]

Even if I didn't want to spoil this thread with OT stuff anymore, Toxikator is spot on, it's all just a matter of where you're coming from.

The classical numbering system has some advances because it actually sort of describes the functional content.

The "jazzy" numbering system doesn't do so, but on the other hand it's making it easier to number out like any chord progression, as long as modulation isn't getting too heavy (and in that case, usually brackets can be used).

Each of the two has pros and cons. As easy as that. No need to get all heated up.

Personally, I stick with the "jazz" system, simply because I can write down the music I'm into easier. So it's only capital roman numbers, indexed with "min" (or "m") and the usual suspects to deal with 7ths and further optional notes.
I treat actual chord names the same, btw. Pretty much the Berklee and New Realbook style.
And, to be honest, for a site such as KVR I think it's making most sense as well - unless we're indeed talking classical music.

[Toxikator]

True, but those coming from a classical context find it confusing seeing a minor chord notated in capitals.

IIIm7, for example, is understood to be a m7 chord. But from classical analysis, it could also be inferred as a III (major) with a min7, AKA a IIIMm7, which in JAZZ is a III7, etc...

I prefer to do both: iiim7. Realistically, when dealing with tetrachordal harmony the jazz system is the common one, but in JJFs case it's primarily triadic so I don't think it's a GIVEN, at any rate.

[No name]

Let me ask you guys something. Is there any book out that that is good for learning chords. I mean, it starts with the most basic principles/rules, and ends having given you a very thorough understanding on chords? I think, while some of the things in this thread i've understood well, and other I haven't, I just find that there are holes in my understanding of chords that makes it difficult for me to read a lot of this. I need something that will start with the most simple concepts, and will go step by step giving me a more better understanding of chords. There has to be such a book, obviously, but which one?

[No name]

i-ii-vii-i is nice, simply more unusual TSDT.
Here is a progression, a part of the harmony that I use in one of my tracks, somebody might like it...:

I - V - I(1) - ii - vi(1) - IV - vii(1) - I

The number in brackets indicates inversion...
The track moves slowly, it is an ambient/soundtrack electronic instrumental piece.

Here is a short song Calm Water using Varadin's progression. The chords I used were

Code: Select all

C  G  C/E  Dm  Am/E  F  Bm/F#  G

I changed the last chord to a V (G) because I liked the bass run. I may not have the inversions correct but I like the sound.

Thank you, it helps tremendously to hear it! It helps me understand how the chords are used. Thanks.

[MadBrain]

Let me ask you guys something. Is there any book out that that is good for learning chords. I mean, it starts with the most basic principles/rules, and ends having given you a very thorough understanding on chords? I think, while some of the things in this thread i've understood well, and other I haven't, I just find that there are holes in my understanding of chords that makes it difficult for me to read a lot of this. I need something that will start with the most simple concepts, and will go step by step giving me a more better understanding of chords. There has to be such a book, obviously, but which one?

Dunno... I liked "the jazz theory book" by mark levine.

[No name]

Ok, i've been reading through a website that has helped me quite a lot. It's interesting seeing such VAST number of variations on a chord...Such as this:

iim7b5 (pronounced "two minor seven flat five")

Talk about complex! I don't know how yet, but I have to fit that into my music somehow.

I take it such a chord is used mainly within jazz?

[No name]

So really, like playing idividual notes and fitting them into melodies, chords can be thought of as something you'll go to when you need a particular sound it seems. I'm slowly getting a hint of the similarities between chords/progessions that I have with notes/melodies. They are almost sort of the same when you think of chords as, in the end, 3 notes coming together to create one big note (bad explaination, but it seems correct!) One has to just learn all the different chords and see how they sound, and then later when they are needed you can pull out all these different chords/inversions/substitutions to give your chord progression that spice. I should be sleeping right now.

[BertKoor]

It's interesting seeing such VAST number of variations on a chord...Such as this:

iim7b5 (pronounced "two minor seven flat five")

It's actually pronounced "half diminished seventh"

I take it such a chord is used mainly within jazz?

You can apply it in any musical style. Fits really well in balads, maybe R&B... Jazz has influenced most styles of popular music.

[No name]

Actually, I just copy and pasted the name of it from the website. I wasn't even about to write it all out.

I just figured it was from jazz because it seems to use so many of the more unusual chords and what not, hell to be honest I have no clue, it was just an assumption.

[herodotus]

This griping about chord names and symbols is bizarre.

We do have a very accurate form of musical notation that lacks all of these annoying ambiguities. As long as we are in theory land, why not use it?

Half of the wasted space in these threads could be illiminated immediately.

If you are unfamiliar with the process of how to do it, just get a screen capture app like FastStone's free one, take a snapshot off of your notation editor, and host the picture.

Hell, kvr even provides a free and easy picture hosting service for you.

If newbies don't understand, by all means help them out with chord symbols or whatever. But in the meantime....

[nuffink]

This griping about chord names and symbols is bizarre.

We do have a very accurate form of musical notation that lacks all of these annoying ambiguities. As long as we are in theory land, why not use it?

If you're talking about the dots then experience shows that the vast majority of newbies, even the ones who want to learn, will take one look and find something better to do.

[herodotus]

If you're talking about the dots then experience shows that the vast majority of newbies, even the ones who want to learn, will take one look and find something better to do.

Well the dots are cool, but a piano roll, or even a template of a piano keyboard with the keys in question colored in would be vastly superior to these chord name thingies.

I mean, it's not just 'jazz' and 'classical' that are different. There is a Germanic tradition, a French tradition, an American tradition (non-jazz). I am sure there are others I have forgotten.

Each is, pointlessly, a little different from the others. And each is a cumbersome form of communication.

It's like the whole 'movable do' versus stationary do debacle.

I know, I am probably being irrelevant. But damn how I hate those Roman numerals.