Shows us Theory Newbies how to implement chords.

[No name]

Interesting. I hope that eventually I can get my basics down, because one area I plan to jump to is jazz.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Now, when you drop the second note from the top (G) by an octave, the resulting voicing is G-C-E-B.
This, in jazz theory, is still refered to as a first inversion chord.

Really?

In any classical context referring to G-C-E-B as 'first inversion' (or 'root position') C chord would definitely be considered wrong. - Unless of course there was something playing below, like a bass guitar or something, is that what you meant?

G-C-E-B, at least classically, is almost certainly the second inversion of a C7. (Figured 4/3 in figured bass). I admit my knowledge of jazz isn't as extensive, but I still have a hard time figuring out why on its own it could be classed as any other inversion. (Unless possibly a 1st inversion of Emin6, or possibly a 3rd inversion of Amin with a major ninth (and no root), (depending on context) but that's stretching things a bit).

[Km7]

In fact, even a single string should probably sound like major, due to the major 3rd being present rather loud in the overtone structure.

True. Actually, this is an important line. That's why Rameau writes that melody actually comes from harmony and harmony exists before melody - it is implied in the nature of every sound, it is in the overtone series.

1) I'll check it later, probably the resulting combination tones affect the sound.

2) Overtones decrease in amplitude and significance, that's why everything after the first five-six overtones becomes almost inaudible and is insignificant. Furthermore, the 7th overtone is out of tune, it also cannot be used in theory and thus forms the boundary of usable overtones. I think it seems more natural to sing a maj7 because it is a major third above the fifth and a fifth above the third, while a minor seventh would outline a b5, which is hard and unnatural to sing (counterpoint rules don't allow this interval - directly or outlined in a linear "run"). And the tritone doesn't exist in nature, it is a "defect" of the equal temperament.

[Sascha Franck]

In any classical context referring to G-C-E-B as 'first inversion' (or 'root position') C chord would definitely be considered wrong. - Unless of course there was something playing below, like a bass guitar or something, is that what you meant?

No bass needed at all.
But then, really, inversions in jazz theory aren't of much importance. At least not even halfway as important as they might be in classical analysis.
In jazz (and probably pop/rock/soul/funk and whatnot) theory, they're basically just used as some sort of vehicle for practising and probably a bit of arranging.
When arranging something, you usually care about the top note first, then put all the chord notes below them. After that, I may want to achieve a wider sound, so I would just drop all second top notes an octave. And after that I may just alter some notes to "enhance" the chord (13 instead of a 5, that kind of stuff). Of course, I may as well check the individual voices for playability and plausibility, but you rarely even think about inversions at all. They serve their best purpose when learning to play chords.

Probably slightly related: When you think about it, jazz scores, even detailed big band ones, aren't even remotely as "dictating" as classical scores. Sure, the horns will have to play what's written, but basically the complete rhythm section is playing quite "freely". So, as a guitar player, I may have the occasional line to play, and I may as well find some top notes of voicings - but as long as the voicing below the top note suites the context, nobody cares about what notes exactly I'm gonna be playing. And usually you just get chord symbols and endless bars of | / / / / | anyways. Maybe that's why nobody needs to care much about inversions either.

2) Overtones decrease in amplitude and significance, that's why everything after the first five-six overtones becomes almost inaudible and is insignificant. Furthermore, the 7th overtone is out of tune, it also cannot be used in theory and thus forms the boundary of usable overtones. I think it seems more natural to sing a maj7 because it is a major third above the fifth and a fifth above the third, while a minor seventh would outline a b5, which is hard and unnatural to sing. And counterpoint rules doesn't allow this interval - directly or outlined in a "run". And the tritone doesn't exist in nature, it is a "defect" of the equal temperament.

Yeah, nice explanation. Sounds very plausible to me.

[Km7]

Well, thanks. On the other hand, the Ionian mode is the acoustical source of the other modes, the most stable and in-rest mode compared to them. (And the resolution of the tritone interval between the 4th and the 7th degree results in the tonic chord.)

As for 1) and in our example, the Bm7b5add11 chord, I spent some time calculating some of the combination tones of first order for this chord. As I see, there is no D. It is possible to be a second-order tone, but then it becomes weaker.
Overall, the tritone's combination tones are in such an unusual combination that we really have a indeterminate and very ambiguous interval (similar deduction could be made from overtone viewpoint), where none of its tones is more significant and underlined to clearly become the root of the interval. That's why the root of this restless interval becomes clear in chordal context; it is usually the tone which leads best to the root of the next chord (leading tone). Of course, our auditory system assumes a resolution for this interval, it searches for a tonic and from what was mentioned, the most logical lies down a perfect fifth. Really, the tritone is very dominant interval. It even affects the progression as an interval between the factors of two different chords (tritone relation, tritone cross-relation). A root progression by a tritone would be harmonically of least significance.
In our particular case, two of the combination tones lie somewhere around Ab (not exactly the equally tempered frequencies), one of them below creates an octave and a minor third with B (it is in the bass), the other, being in the higher octave, creates a major sixth. But I don't think this is very significant considering the complex picture.
So what I believe here is that in our case the complexity and ambiguity of the overall chord sound is so big, with so many conflicts, that a presentation of the third seems to be almost irrelevant - its harmonic force cannot overcome the tritone well (especially with the other dissonances), its harmonic purity is clouded, so it can be missed out to provide the more important chord tones.

[No name]

I've got a question.

I'm reading about minor chords right now, and the way they are written out confuse me. For example it shows the minor triads (Amin-A C E=Imi) but my issue is when it shows rhe major chords under it (C-C E G=bIII), i'm not quite sure what to make of the b in front of bIII, what is going on there? I'm also assuming that when it shows these chords, they mean that all of the chords shown are in that particular key (they use A Minor as an example) so that Amin=Imi and C=bIII...correct? This iy main problem with learning theory, all of these roman numerals thrown around, and the meaning of the roman numerals in many instances are still quite vague to me.

[nuffink]

The b indicates that the scale degree is flattened (by a semitone). So your bIII is the flattened third degree of the scale. Since the root of the bIII chord is C it means that you're in the key of A. It works like this...

A=I
Bb=bII
B=II
C=bIII
Db=III

etc

[No name]

Oh ok I see, thanks nuffink.

[No name]

Ok, i've been playing and examining some sheet music I found online.

The following chord progression is from James Blunt's "You're Beautiful":
Eb, Eb/D, Cminor7 and Ab major

This isn't quite a simple old major progression, and this interests me because up to this point I thought it was rare that musicians ever even went out of key when creating progressions. Help me dissect this and explain why this works so well? I do realize that the Ab Major chord leads into the Eb Major because it is the dominant, and so it naturally leads to it. The minor chord stuck in there gets me though, is there some reason why a Cminor7 would fit nicely within a major progression?

Edit: Nevermind, I see the Cminor is part of the progression. I don't know why I forget that a certain key's chords have a mixture of major and minor chords.

[nuffink]

Ok, i've been playing and examining some sheet music I found online.

The following chord progression is from James Blunt's "You're Beautiful":
Eb, Eb/D, Cminor7 and Ab major

This isn't quite a simple old major progression, and this interests me because up to this point I thought it was rare that musicians ever even went out of key when creating progressions. Help me dissect this and explain why this works so well? I do realize that the Ab Major chord leads into the Eb Major because it is the dominant, and so it naturally leads to it. The minor chord stuck in there gets me though, is there some reason why a Cminor7 would fit nicely within a major progression?

Edit: Nevermind, I see the Cminor is part of the progression. I don't know why I forget that a certain key's chords have a mixture of major and minor chords.

I suspect that your sheet music might not be too accurate either. This site looks pretty good and has the progression listed as Eb Bb/D Cm7 Ab (ignoring the tensions).

[laputa_sync]

[BosseJo]

Slurpefitte...jösses

[No name]

Ok, i've been playing and examining some sheet music I found online.

The following chord progression is from James Blunt's "You're Beautiful":
Eb, Eb/D, Cminor7 and Ab major

This isn't quite a simple old major progression, and this interests me because up to this point I thought it was rare that musicians ever even went out of key when creating progressions. Help me dissect this and explain why this works so well? I do realize that the Ab Major chord leads into the Eb Major because it is the dominant, and so it naturally leads to it. The minor chord stuck in there gets me though, is there some reason why a Cminor7 would fit nicely within a major progression?

Edit: Nevermind, I see the Cminor is part of the progression. I don't know why I forget that a certain key's chords have a mixture of major and minor chords.

I suspect that your sheet music might not be too accurate either. This site looks pretty good and has the progression listed as Eb Bb/D Cm7 Ab (ignoring the tensions).

Ok, they are incorrect in their spelling, I see that the notation on 8notes.com (the site i'm reading it off of) has the notation correct, but it seems some slipped up on spelling the chords out, and I didn't realize it (should pay more attention).

Thanks once again nuffink.

[BosseJo]

Interesting. I hope that eventually I can get my basics down, because one area I plan to jump to is jazz.

Reading your questions I think you should take a look at this book:

http://www.jazzwise.com/catalog/product ... cts_id=862

You can also read about it here (this site is also a good resouce):
http://home.scarlet.be/~abenbass/books.html

It is one of the best books about learning jazz and particularly when it comes to progressions.

[No name]

Interesting. I hope that eventually I can get my basics down, because one area I plan to jump to is jazz.

Reading your questions I think you should take a look at this book:

http://www.jazzwise.com/catalog/product ... cts_id=862

You can also read about it here (this site is also a good resouce):
http://home.scarlet.be/~abenbass/books.html

It is one of the best books about learning jazz and particularly when it comes to progressions.

Bookmarked, thanks!