Chords in a key for beginners

[Sascha Franck]

Jack, seriously, no offense meant, but restricting yourself to chord notes only, even in the beginning, simply doesn't work in "pop" music (regardless of the various styles that might be covered with that term).
I'm sure there's not a single (!) hookline for whatever famous pop song which is only using chord notes.
The approach might work for classical music (I don't happen to have the slightest clue), it's as well a nice practising vehicle when learning jazz improvisation, and as soon as it comes to instrument skills, it might as well work out in a pop context.
But, when it comes to composing a catchy hook over what might be the most simple chord progression of all times, it simply won't work at all.
Just try for yourself with the chords mentioned. Try to stay away from seconds, the occasional chromaticism - and still write a convincing pop hookline. Think along the lines of singers. Do they want to sing 3rd and 4th intervals? Hell no, they want to sing seconds or pentatonics. Neither of them being covered by chord notes only (unless you drastically expand those chords, in which case we'd open another can of worms).

Really, as much as I appreciate your knowledge and will to contribute, in this case it's no good advice.

[Sascha Franck]

If in a Major key... it's wise to stick to Major chords?

No, not exactly. Basically, even in a major key, you could still use all the chords there are, using the notes of the key.

[/quote]
"Try Gmaj - Emin - Amin - Dmaj this will definitely sound like Gmajor."

How did you come up with that selection?[/quote]

Just a common chord progression in major keys.
I started a thread trying to describe the most common chord progressions. I'm not even through with it by 10% (well, not even by 5%), but you may want to have a look whether there's something of interest for you:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

[JumpingJackFlash]

Jack, seriously, no offense meant,

None taken.

but restricting yourself to chord notes only, even in the beginning, simply doesn't work in "pop" music (regardless of the various styles that might be covered with that term).
I'm sure there's not a single (!) hookline for whatever famous pop song which is only using chord notes.
The approach might work for classical music (I don't happen to have the slightest clue), it's as well a nice practising vehicle when learning jazz improvisation, and as soon as it comes to instrument skills, it might as well work out in a pop context.
But, when it comes to composing a catchy hook over what might be the most simple chord progression of all times, it simply won't work at all.
Just try for yourself with the chords mentioned. Try to stay away from seconds, the occasional chromaticism - and still write a convincing pop hookline. Think along the lines of singers. Do they want to sing 3rd and 4th intervals? Hell no, they want to sing seconds or pentatonics. Neither of them being covered by chord notes only (unless you drastically expand those chords, in which case we'd open another can of worms).

I fully agree that real music doesn't work that way, and I fully agree that sticking only to the notes of the chord will produce boring melodies. - I'm just talking from a purely theoretical viewpoint. The original question, if I remember correctly, was something about knowing what the 'correct' notes are to play over chords (in a specific key). I was just trying to answer that as simply as possible, without complicating things with unnecessary explanations and going into too much detail. - But if the original poster finds my explanation too simple, or if he wants more details, then by all means he should read what you and the others wrote. - It's up to him really at the end of the day, we can't know how simple or detailed he needs things to be.

[aucoton]

Dear KVRers...

This has got to be the most stupid question of the century, but please bear with me. I am new to music theory and I need some advise (help), etc...

I am using Cubase SX3 and some other sequencers, etc.

Now, this is the problem:

I am writing a song in the key of G Major. All ok here.

Say, for example, I create 4 measures and a chord progression here. From G Major I can correctly have the following (I think?):

Measures:

1 Em
2
3 C
4 Em

All fine here (I think). Now the problem:

A) Taking into account the whole song is in G Major, what "correct" single notes can I have in the first measure (being that the first measure is Em chord)? How do I know which "correct" notes I have available? I don't know if I'm making sense here. I am trying to make a lead melody, but am all confused about how notes in the first measure map to the Em chord (and G Major key?) If someone explains the techinque or principle, I'll figure the rest of the measures out.



Thanks!

Any input greatly appreciated.

Mike

My music/guitar teacher taught me a simple formula for learning
the notes of scales.
He started with the simple C major........

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
C D E F G A B C

then to find the next scale i.e. containing 1 sharp note,
take the 5th note of the C major scale (G) and write out the sequence again starting from the G.....(G A B C D E F G) and sharpen the 7th giving

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
G A B C D E F# G.......the scale of G major. 1 sharp.

Using the same formula, start from the 5th, keep all that are sharps and sharpen the new 7th......

D E F# G A B C# D.....the scale of D major. 2 sharps.

A B C# D E F# G# A....the scale of A major. 3 sharps.
and it continues......

For scales in flats it's similar........
starting with C major.....
take the 4th and flatten the new 4th.......

As for minors,
well a simple approach is to know the relative minors to their major scales,
The relative minor of a major scale starts with the 6th note of a major.
i.e. the relative minor to C major is.....

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
C D E F G A B C ...........A minor

and the simplest minor scale is to write out the notes of the major scale starting from the 6th

A B C D E F G A ..........A minor

In your example you were writing in G major/ relative E minor...

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
G A B C D E F# G........G major

start from the 6th.......

E F# G A B C D E.......E minor

There are a couple of other minor scales which play with extra sharps, it all depends on the melody you want to have, you're allowed to try any note you want against any other and sometimes
the accidents, the fluffed note, the flattened 5th of a major are exactly right.

Hope this is useful for you
Neil

[Toxikator]

The minor scales with "extra sharps" are the sharpened 7th of the harmonic minor and the sharpened 6th of the melodic minor (and also the dorian, which is sometimes used)...

[JumpingJackFlash]

The minor scales with "extra sharps" are the sharpened 7th of the harmonic minor and the sharpened 6th of the melodic minor (and also the dorian, which is sometimes used)...

Just to clarify, the melodic minor has sharpened 6th and 7th on the way up, but natural on the way down.
The dorian mode has sharpened 6th only.

[nuffink]

The minor scales with "extra sharps" are the sharpened 7th of the harmonic minor and the sharpened 6th of the melodic minor (and also the dorian, which is sometimes used)...

Just to clarify, the melodic minor has sharpened 6th and 7th on the way up, but natural on the way down.
The dorian mode has sharpened 6th only.

The dorian mode has a sharpened sixth referenced to what?

[JumpingJackFlash]

The minor scales with "extra sharps" are the sharpened 7th of the harmonic minor and the sharpened 6th of the melodic minor (and also the dorian, which is sometimes used)...

Just to clarify, the melodic minor has sharpened 6th and 7th on the way up, but natural on the way down.
The dorian mode has sharpened 6th only.

The dorian mode has a sharpened sixth referenced to what?

With reference to the same thing as everything else I and Toxi were talking about; the natural minor (starting on the same note).

[Toxikator]

Indeed. Also, JJF, though it is said that the melodic minor changes on ascent and descent, that's an extremely vague notion in modern music, even MORE so when dealing with harmony which doesn't "ascend" or "descend" in any scale-oriented sense most of the time.

It's more helpful to think of the forms of the minor as being interchangeable; the artist selects the proper tones at will from the lineup. And apart from some general policy about surrounding the #6 or #7 with their natural minor counterparts directly, it's almost entirely a matter of taste*

*HUGE simplification, since there's a lot that goes on when dealing with the dominant that involves using the #7 even when you wouldn't typically.

However, it should be noted about the #7 that if you DO use it, it's almost always going to appear in the V chord.

for example, you might see both the III (from the nat. minor) and the V (from the harmonic minor), and you might see both the III+ (from the harmonic minor) and the V (from the harmonic minor)... but it'd be far LESS likely to see the III+ (from the harmonic minor) and the v (from the natural minor).

[Sascha Franck]

Man, you folks surely know what a beginner needs... there's now like 3-4 threads dealing with the same issues, all "labeled" beginners/newbies thread, discussing something that must look like metaphysics to those very beginners.
And as I also fell for it, I am now officially out here.

[nuffink]

Man, you folks surely know what a beginner needs... there's now like 3-4 threads dealing with the same issues, all "labeled" beginners/newbies thread, discussing something that must look like metaphysics to those very beginners.
And as I also fell for it, I am now officially out here.

If you're going to continue to tell people off for behaviour you don't like (but are happy to indulge in) at least have the guts to name some names. Because I've answered the newbies in here with focused, relevant answers and this is the second time you've flounced out of a thread trailing vague accusations which tar us all with the same brush.

[advaya]

I think Sascha was referring to toxikator's post. Which really has no place in a thread targeted to beginners.

I think I'm starting to see your frustration here nuffink.

for example, you might see both the III (from the nat. minor) and the V (from the harmonic minor), and you might see both the III+ (from the harmonic minor) and the V (from the harmonic minor)... but it'd be far LESS likely to see the III+ (from the harmonic minor) and the v (from the natural minor).

jesus toxikator. remember who the target audience is here with most of these theory threads.

[Sascha Franck]

nuffink, I have been referring largely to the 4 of us - this is myself included, and I already said so.
Of course, all of us probably offered some valuable advice as well, but as long as we (again, that includes me) continue to discuss each and every harmonic possibility, each approach and each chord in detail in like every thread that is about harmony, we probably won't attract any newbies to actually follow the discussion. More to the opposite, they might rather be put off. Really, it's like trying to teach someone 1+1 and end up in a discussion about metaphysics.
And for the third time: I am just as guilty.
And well, talking about "guilty" - of course that's not the proper term. Yet, in the end, some threads just got convoluted by our discussions.

We should all just show a bit more respect and probably open up some theory penis length comparison thread for our musings. I'm gladly in there.

[Toxikator]

Well yes, but then remember that the OP isn't the only one reading along.

I think it's smarter to give the audience credit, and to discuss things in more advanced terms... and then if they post saying that the explanation was entirely too confusing, come back and clarify it.

Advaya: the target audience is anyone interested in harmony, IMO. There's quite a spectrum of "beginners", and I'm sure some of them are curious as to just HOW the various forms of the minor are interchangeable.

[Sascha Franck]

Well yes, but then remember that the OP isn't the only one reading along

But it has been the original poster. And what have you (or even we) done to answer his question?

I think it's smarter to give the audience credit, and to discuss things in more advanced terms... and then if they post saying that the explanation was entirely too confusing, come back and clarify it.

Sorry, but from my experience as a teacher that's just nonsense. Utter nonsense even.
You start with 2+2 and probably proceed to 3+3 and 2*2 later on.
You don't start with metaphysics and tell your students they should just get back to you and ask, in case things are too difficult.
Really, that's "Teaching 101". And it hardly ever works the other way around (believe me, I have been teaching for around 15 years straight, and I tried like every approach there is).
Do yourself a favour and try to remember the days you started out with these things. It'll be an eye opener.