CME UF5 Controller Keyboard - First impressions
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- KVRer
- 19 posts since 30 Jan, 2007
thnx for the info, i might go with the xboard25 just incase.
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- KVRer
- 25 posts since 15 Sep, 2005
Just a quick note: the UF8 has been just fine over USB in Win XP for me using driver 1.05. The faders and rotaries are good, the single assignment snapshot is adequate. The Aftertouch is a bit stiff. The action is better than a Motif's, absolutely divine, it's a lot like a Steinway with a specific slight bounce-back. Bullshark was maybe mechanically engineering-wise expecting a swiss watch, and granted this is not as precisely made, but it's very decent. For instance Bullshark harps on faders dangerously soldered to a fragile PC board, whereas in reality the way it's built you cannot stress and damage the board. All I can say is that for under a grand, this is the controller I've been dreaming of. The VX series is I think Chinese gaming-overgadgetized silly and costs more. None of the dream idea of using a keyboard as a master control surface fader bank is really practical, it's a complex topic. I stick to basics on that front, the UF8's faders can be made to do the job for e.g. mixing, the transport controls are great, but I chose it for the best action, and in this dept it has no competition. Don't even think of a plastic on plastic M-Audio Pro88. I've had Studiologic/Fatar and this is way better and an inviting MUSICAL instrument.
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- KVRer
- 25 posts since 15 Sep, 2005
OK, I have had a couple weeks now with the UF8 using it with driver 1.05 on a Athlon dualcore 64 using XP Media Center 2005 edition (with superfluous services turned off) and the supplied short USB cable, and powering with the AC supply (recommended - no Aftertouch in USB-only power mode). I too was a little put off by the moaning about the drivers and Bullshark's merciless mechanical engineer's teardown, but I have been happily discovering this massive keyboard works as well as it looks, as I even like the red end-pieces now. Most importantly, no CME-specific driver problems so far. I have seen rare situations in which some USB MIDI ports drop out momentarily, but this is a complex software interaction where it affects other devices too, and I don't think the CME driver is the main problem. Overall once set up, it seems to be fine on my DAW. I suppose I could do more testing, e.g. switch to MIDI mode, uninstall the driver and see if anything changes, but I prefer USB because of convenient default mappings, and I've not seen anything odd for days on end. One can do the same mappings over MIDI with the supplied UF Editor, or by mapping in the DAW, so if I ever get a run of drop-outs, I'll investigate, but this has simply not been the case, it's been working fine.
The UF8 comes with and works with various DAW templates, including Nuendo, Sonar, Logic etc. The "beta 1.0" undocumented UF-Editor gets "wired in" using a virtual passthrough driver, and offers a screen to map what comes from the UF8 faders/knobs over MIDI or USB to almost whatever you want. It also provides for editing velocity and aftertouch curves. Frankly, I have rarely used it. In other words, one way or another, you can make the UF8 work just fine, and maybe straight out of the box, like it has for me. I tried it out in a pro audio shop on a Mac running Logic 7, cabled in over MIDI, and the transport buttons worked, etc.
I have not tried long USB cables yet, if there's a problem with the USB signal quality, it would come out there. But again, the MIDI cabling option is there, so I'm not worried.
Bullshark's mechanical deconstruction observations are too harsh, though technically not inaccurate. You can say similar things about most pieces of contemporary Chinese-made gear. I wouldn't expect any 30 Kg keyboard to make a good traveling companion, but with a well-padded hard-case it should be usable on the road - after all, it arrived in one intact piece in a carboard box. And, unlikely as it seems now, if those screws do eventually work loose or the bottom board warps, I'll have a piece of suitable material cut to replace it, as I'm very fond of this instrument, and expect it to last. In the studio it's a dream. That's the bottom line, and people shouldn't get scared off.
The action is lightly graded, and just plain amazing. There's no comparison to anything in this price range. It feels a lot like a Steinway, but with a slight bounce-back that's great. This is very subjective, but I had a Fatar (= Studiologic) that felt inert and never made me want to play it, while this instrument is quite the opposite, it invites me, so please understand that the time I'm spending here typing instead of being in the studio playing is because I want other people to have that pleasure.
Now, I do think that a lot of people may be actually better off with 76 or 61 key semi-weighted keybed for general (non-piano) playing and softsynth use, because such an action is fast, effortless, and precise. I love the DX7 action, for instance, and the CME UF7 is great, but personally I'd rather work out a technique using weighted hammer-action for everything. Once you start using a UF8 for left handed bass or drums playing, or try a bunch of orchestral patches with aftertouch, you'll probably never go back. Of course with piano sounds it's just plain regal: load up any good VST sampler with a multi-layered grand piano patch, and I bet you'll spend hours rediscovering the instrument before you do anything else. Not that I'm a virtuoso, but after listening for a while my wife said "Oh, yes, I do now see why."
The aftertouch natively requires significant finger force, but you can increase sensitivity in the DAW, or the UF-Editor, if you want. The problem with an oversensitive aftertouch is unintentionally triggering on every note, so CME made a reasonable decision here. It looks on the schematic (which is downloadable) like maybe there's a pair of potentiometers internally if one wanted to try adjusting it. A little less to my liking is the fact that at a given pressure level only a single message goes out, there are of course only 128 levels, and the pressure is not re-sampled very often internally, which can lead to jumps in the modulated parameter. I will try playing with ways to get a little more sensitivity and increased message density. Still, the default aftertouch is very usable, and it's not swamping the DAW. The Breath controller can be used very very effectively. A lot of stuff, like the aftertouch curve, is adjustable in the UF-editor, but it's working OK for me with defaults. The 4 default velocity curves are also all very useful for specific purposes. Yes, it does send from 1 to 127, AND it sends release velocity as well as the standard attack velocity. You can program some synths/samplers to respond to that parameter.
The whole fader/knob issue is complex. It's never been my finding that there's a natural way to replace the hundreds of controls on an analog setup, from console knobs and faders to the controls on outboard gear, synths, etc. with a handful of faders/knobs on a control surface. It's the old too few multi-function-buttons problem. It just apparently requires specific setup for specific tasks. The virtual nature of the DAW makes it too easy to add a track or effects and throw all your setup off. So it's nice to have some reasonable defaults with some templates and then be able to quickly set up the controls for e.g a specific mixdown. There's a button on the UF8 that switches the faders between 3 different setups. But no number of internal memories or setups will cover all the bases, so the primitive but usable UF-editor is a good way to store snapshots if your DAW is not good at it. In the next pricier VX generation, CME is throwing in 20 memories, motorized faders, various game/demo song features - it seems as ridiculous as chinese cell phones that try to do too much, like web browsing and a date-book - with too few buttons. The 16 memories in my Edirol PCR-50 end up never being used, I just remap on the fly. So I find the UF8 feature set is just about right.
Having the dedicated transport buttons is good. In MIDI mode they send some odd codes, in USB mode they send CC 115-119, which is a reasonable (though debatable) choice, but you can maybe remap that through the UF-Editor. Sadly no standard MIDI messages exist for RECORD, STOP, REWIND etc, so we are stuck with compromises. In practice, with modern DAWs that do "MIDI-Learn", this is a non-issue, the transport buttons can be made to work, and they're very useful in my workflow.
Bottom line, being able to retain the fader/knob assignments as you last left them is simple but sufficient. In practice it's ergonomically well thought out. I wouldn't pine for the bells and whistles of the VX series. Motorized faders need complex support in the DAW, and features like "override on finger contact", that are missing on low cost motorized fader boxes, so I can't imagine them being well-implemented in the VX, and I expect that they will turn out to be largely useless marketing fluff.
The available space on the right side of the UF8's ample surface is great for a 25 key controller, or a QWERTY and a specialized controller. This is a big keyboard with a big feel. I can maybe at last get rid of that old acoustic baby grand. I keep discovering good things about the UF8, and I would give it at least a 9/10 overall, so if you crave that tight $3500 piano action, but need a full width controller, not a stage piano with no modwheel or aftertouch, this CME UF8 is a heck of a controller for the money.
The UF8 comes with and works with various DAW templates, including Nuendo, Sonar, Logic etc. The "beta 1.0" undocumented UF-Editor gets "wired in" using a virtual passthrough driver, and offers a screen to map what comes from the UF8 faders/knobs over MIDI or USB to almost whatever you want. It also provides for editing velocity and aftertouch curves. Frankly, I have rarely used it. In other words, one way or another, you can make the UF8 work just fine, and maybe straight out of the box, like it has for me. I tried it out in a pro audio shop on a Mac running Logic 7, cabled in over MIDI, and the transport buttons worked, etc.
I have not tried long USB cables yet, if there's a problem with the USB signal quality, it would come out there. But again, the MIDI cabling option is there, so I'm not worried.
Bullshark's mechanical deconstruction observations are too harsh, though technically not inaccurate. You can say similar things about most pieces of contemporary Chinese-made gear. I wouldn't expect any 30 Kg keyboard to make a good traveling companion, but with a well-padded hard-case it should be usable on the road - after all, it arrived in one intact piece in a carboard box. And, unlikely as it seems now, if those screws do eventually work loose or the bottom board warps, I'll have a piece of suitable material cut to replace it, as I'm very fond of this instrument, and expect it to last. In the studio it's a dream. That's the bottom line, and people shouldn't get scared off.
The action is lightly graded, and just plain amazing. There's no comparison to anything in this price range. It feels a lot like a Steinway, but with a slight bounce-back that's great. This is very subjective, but I had a Fatar (= Studiologic) that felt inert and never made me want to play it, while this instrument is quite the opposite, it invites me, so please understand that the time I'm spending here typing instead of being in the studio playing is because I want other people to have that pleasure.
Now, I do think that a lot of people may be actually better off with 76 or 61 key semi-weighted keybed for general (non-piano) playing and softsynth use, because such an action is fast, effortless, and precise. I love the DX7 action, for instance, and the CME UF7 is great, but personally I'd rather work out a technique using weighted hammer-action for everything. Once you start using a UF8 for left handed bass or drums playing, or try a bunch of orchestral patches with aftertouch, you'll probably never go back. Of course with piano sounds it's just plain regal: load up any good VST sampler with a multi-layered grand piano patch, and I bet you'll spend hours rediscovering the instrument before you do anything else. Not that I'm a virtuoso, but after listening for a while my wife said "Oh, yes, I do now see why."
The aftertouch natively requires significant finger force, but you can increase sensitivity in the DAW, or the UF-Editor, if you want. The problem with an oversensitive aftertouch is unintentionally triggering on every note, so CME made a reasonable decision here. It looks on the schematic (which is downloadable) like maybe there's a pair of potentiometers internally if one wanted to try adjusting it. A little less to my liking is the fact that at a given pressure level only a single message goes out, there are of course only 128 levels, and the pressure is not re-sampled very often internally, which can lead to jumps in the modulated parameter. I will try playing with ways to get a little more sensitivity and increased message density. Still, the default aftertouch is very usable, and it's not swamping the DAW. The Breath controller can be used very very effectively. A lot of stuff, like the aftertouch curve, is adjustable in the UF-editor, but it's working OK for me with defaults. The 4 default velocity curves are also all very useful for specific purposes. Yes, it does send from 1 to 127, AND it sends release velocity as well as the standard attack velocity. You can program some synths/samplers to respond to that parameter.
The whole fader/knob issue is complex. It's never been my finding that there's a natural way to replace the hundreds of controls on an analog setup, from console knobs and faders to the controls on outboard gear, synths, etc. with a handful of faders/knobs on a control surface. It's the old too few multi-function-buttons problem. It just apparently requires specific setup for specific tasks. The virtual nature of the DAW makes it too easy to add a track or effects and throw all your setup off. So it's nice to have some reasonable defaults with some templates and then be able to quickly set up the controls for e.g a specific mixdown. There's a button on the UF8 that switches the faders between 3 different setups. But no number of internal memories or setups will cover all the bases, so the primitive but usable UF-editor is a good way to store snapshots if your DAW is not good at it. In the next pricier VX generation, CME is throwing in 20 memories, motorized faders, various game/demo song features - it seems as ridiculous as chinese cell phones that try to do too much, like web browsing and a date-book - with too few buttons. The 16 memories in my Edirol PCR-50 end up never being used, I just remap on the fly. So I find the UF8 feature set is just about right.
Having the dedicated transport buttons is good. In MIDI mode they send some odd codes, in USB mode they send CC 115-119, which is a reasonable (though debatable) choice, but you can maybe remap that through the UF-Editor. Sadly no standard MIDI messages exist for RECORD, STOP, REWIND etc, so we are stuck with compromises. In practice, with modern DAWs that do "MIDI-Learn", this is a non-issue, the transport buttons can be made to work, and they're very useful in my workflow.
Bottom line, being able to retain the fader/knob assignments as you last left them is simple but sufficient. In practice it's ergonomically well thought out. I wouldn't pine for the bells and whistles of the VX series. Motorized faders need complex support in the DAW, and features like "override on finger contact", that are missing on low cost motorized fader boxes, so I can't imagine them being well-implemented in the VX, and I expect that they will turn out to be largely useless marketing fluff.
The available space on the right side of the UF8's ample surface is great for a 25 key controller, or a QWERTY and a specialized controller. This is a big keyboard with a big feel. I can maybe at last get rid of that old acoustic baby grand. I keep discovering good things about the UF8, and I would give it at least a 9/10 overall, so if you crave that tight $3500 piano action, but need a full width controller, not a stage piano with no modwheel or aftertouch, this CME UF8 is a heck of a controller for the money.
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- KVRist
- 230 posts since 12 Feb, 2007
I haven't had any issues with my CME (uf6).
I have the midi out plugged into my novation x station. Then the USB cable runs from my novation into my PC. No issues with drivers, no hanging notes, everything works great and I couldnt be happier!
Well there is one little thing... As said in the previous post, you must have the AC plugged if you want aftertouch. Other than that I'm very happy. Picked my uf6 used in perfect condition (boxed) off ebay for about $180 (us) with shipping! (I did spend a little time hunting for a deal though).
Much better than any of that M-audio crap!
I have the midi out plugged into my novation x station. Then the USB cable runs from my novation into my PC. No issues with drivers, no hanging notes, everything works great and I couldnt be happier!
Well there is one little thing... As said in the previous post, you must have the AC plugged if you want aftertouch. Other than that I'm very happy. Picked my uf6 used in perfect condition (boxed) off ebay for about $180 (us) with shipping! (I did spend a little time hunting for a deal though).
Much better than any of that M-audio crap!
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- KVRAF
- 6081 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA
Hello,
This has been a very interesting thread on CME keyboards. For more info on the CME UF8 and VX8 see the KVR thread: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=
This has been a very interesting thread on CME keyboards. For more info on the CME UF8 and VX8 see the KVR thread: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=
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- KVRAF
- 1894 posts since 19 Apr, 2006 from Montreal, Canada
Might not be technically accurate anymore either, or maybe it is, I don't know. I wrote that in August last year, but bought an UF8 quite earlier than that, got the very first few that made it in Canada as a matter of fact. I went through four of them (I wanted them to work, there is no alternative here except $4000.00 full fledged workstation), all broken beyond useability in various way; the then importer/distributor (keysound, which I dealt with directly) told me they had quite a few comeback on those models. It's very possible CME took steps to fix the major issues that plagued those first units, let's hope so anyway.peakdesign wrote: Bullshark's mechanical deconstruction observations are too harsh, though technically not inaccurate.
Guess if my old post has any value, it's that you shouldn't assume, just because a unit is heavy and the faceplate sound metallic when tapped, that it's quality construction; be more critical than that when buying mechanical hardware.
No, that wasn't me.
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- KVRAF
- 6081 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA
In this thread http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=
I asked the question if the UF8's made now are better, that is without any defects than the first units that came out of the production line. There are many people that rave about he UF8 but then there is bullshark along with others that had major problems. Were the UF8's with the problems the early units?
I have read in a couple of threads that there is a problem in dynamics on the UF8 when trying to produce a very low velocity. Does the VX8 also have this problem? Can anyone confirm this?
I asked the question if the UF8's made now are better, that is without any defects than the first units that came out of the production line. There are many people that rave about he UF8 but then there is bullshark along with others that had major problems. Were the UF8's with the problems the early units?
I have read in a couple of threads that there is a problem in dynamics on the UF8 when trying to produce a very low velocity. Does the VX8 also have this problem? Can anyone confirm this?
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- KVRian
- 1039 posts since 13 Sep, 2006
"Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black."circuitbentpirate wrote:I love mine, black and red are my favorite colors, the only improvement I would make on this is red keys instead of white.
Henry Ford about Model T
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- KVRian
- 1329 posts since 25 Dec, 2005 from Devon, England
Another thumbs-up for the UF (I got a UF6). The action is nice on mine, consistent across the keys too. I've had no stuck notes with the 1.05 driver. The UF Editor adds a little functionality (pity the UF can't store custom settings on board). I only read the first and last pages of this thread 
so I don't know if anyone's mentioned the plug-in synth module that I read about a few months ago. Is it out yet? Anyone tried it?
so I don't know if anyone's mentioned the plug-in synth module that I read about a few months ago. Is it out yet? Anyone tried it?-
- KVRAF
- 6081 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA
Just bought the CME UF8 for $399 at Sam Ash here in Clearwater. I will pick up a couple of days new in the factory sealed box. I will post my comments when I will use it.
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- KVRist
- 77 posts since 26 Nov, 2006
XDVarenkor wrote:Very happy with my UF8 after a few teething difficulties. Drivers were an issue, but I'm using it through MIDI now (USB's hardly an issue for such a non-portable keyboard) and it's a rock-solid performer. FLStudio has a CME template already set up - it's in the controller types list under MIDI Settings.
Which FL Studio version are you using?
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- KVRAF
- 6081 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA
Had my UF8 for three days now. It has exceeded my high expectations by a little. There is this minor hesitancy or slight stickiness to the note when trying play softly. I suspect I will eventfully get used to it or it goes away when it is broken in.
The dynamic range in my first non-scientific test seems good. I can consistently get a velocity reading of under 10. Velocity 127 is extremely hard, as it should be.
I have not checked out everything. What is it that I should test to see if everything is working properly? Please help me here as I have 11 more days to return it.
The dynamic range in my first non-scientific test seems good. I can consistently get a velocity reading of under 10. Velocity 127 is extremely hard, as it should be.
I have not checked out everything. What is it that I should test to see if everything is working properly? Please help me here as I have 11 more days to return it.
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- KVRist
- 77 posts since 26 Nov, 2006
There is a Waldorf Nano plugin for CME (goes for around $200-350 if I recall correctly), as well as some Firewire audio interface as far as I know.jonnyG wrote:Another thumbs-up for the UF (I got a UF6). The action is nice on mine, consistent across the keys too. I've had no stuck notes with the 1.05 driver. The UF Editor adds a little functionality (pity the UF can't store custom settings on board). I only read the first and last pages of this thread