Kontakt - 2.2 Update.

[bduffy]

Oh well, chalk up another half-working "feature" for Kontakt 2.

[Deric]

loachm... are you saying that the loop gets shortened? That's tragic if true!

[loachm]

loachm... are you saying that the loop gets shortened? That's tragic if true!

...that's what I'm trying to find out, if this is still the case with the latest update - anybody with K2 and Recycle 2 out there to help me out?

[Deric]

loachm, if you post a procedure you want followed I will try it for you (I have both K2 and ReCycle).

[Ceej]

Still a great improvement (2.2) over the previous, but yes - including newer functionality that breaks backwards compatibility is always very bad news - especially if there is no 'Save as older-version-compatible' option...

That's not really what backwards-compatibility means. Backwards-compatible means that newer software is compatible with older data. 2.2.1 doesn't break backwards-compatibility.

The ability for older software to work with newer data is sometimes called "forwards compatibility" - it's obviously a much higher standard and much more difficult to implement. Not much software does, as there's seldom a major call for it.

Given that 2.2.1 is a free update, I can understand NI not bothering with either forwards-compatibility or the "Save as older version" option. Either would have been nice, it's true, but I'd personally rather them work on new features.

Still, if you've got a good compelling reason for them to offer such things - feel free to write to 'em!

[loachm]

...thanks for your offer, Deric. Just take a Rex-File and mute one slice (select it and click the mute-button or select the mute option from the menu). Save this and play it back in Kontakt. If the loop plays "silence" at the respective beat you've muted everything should be fine. If it ignores the muted slice, it will just play from the next slice on and thereby shortening the loop. I hope, I have explained it correctly.

I suppose, the other problem with loops such as the mentioned snare-loops have the same origin, but to make sure, you can also test the following: take a snare rhythm that contains no audio data on the first beat and slice it in Recycle. If Kontakt starts to play this loop on the first snare hit, you'll know that this bug hasn't been fixed either. As far as I remember it this behaviour can also be seen in the loop editor - the parts that haven't been recognised up to now weren't shown in the loop editor as well.

I brought this to NI's attention several times and I got the impression that this would be fixed with the next update - I really hope it is, as I work A LOT with Rex-Files and I'd be more than happy if Kontakt would finally support them completely (K1 also had its flaws with Rex-Files).

To complete the tests, try this as well: set the stretch factor in Recycle to 100% and click on a slice. You'll hear that the slice has been lenghtened. Save this to the loop, load it in Kontakt and choose "expand slices...". If you'll hit the single slices in Kontakt - are they played correctly now? (actually, they are played correctly even now, but I have become sceptical as NI had dropped and adopted this feature several times during the single updates of K2). You can check the whole history here for example: http://www.native-instruments.com/forum ... hp?t=42361

Again, thanks for your offer. Knowing that this could be fixed would really sweeten the waiting time until I'll get my laptop back!

[Deric]

That's not really what backwards-compatibility means. Backwards-compatible means that newer software is compatible with older data. 2.2.1 doesn't break backwards-compatibility....

The ability for older software to work with newer data is sometimes called "forwards compatibility" - it's obviously a much higher standard and much more difficult to implement. Not much software does, as there's seldom a major call for it.

Given that 2.2.1 is a free update, I can understand NI not bothering with either forwards-compatibility or the "Save as older version" option. Either would have been nice, it's true, but I'd personally rather them work on new features.

Still, if you've got a good compelling reason for them to offer such things - feel free to write to 'em!

Hey Ceej - 27 posts in five years - I feel honoured! (especially if this is your only KVR ID ).

Yes I agree with you and apologies for my sloppiness. In order of importance I'd say software companies should try and ensure, where possible they:

1. Allow import of files made/created/modified in older versions (of the same software). This helps 'protect' a users archive data as well as being useful for collaborations.

2. Allow export of files in a format compatible with older versions (of the same software). This is particularly useful for collaborations etc.

Regards writing to NI (or any other company) I could spend all day writing suggestions that may get no further than their email Trash folder let alone be considered - and if all users did this it would be mayhem for a company to try and keep track of, let alone reply to, all the mail.

For an excellent example of how this can so easily frustrate users (paying customers) go and take a look at Cubase.net and check out the contempt with which their customers are treated, the lack of acknowledgement of useful ideas raised, bugs reported, etc, etc. An excellent forum to join if you wish to drive yourself insane with frustration and disbelief.

It really is time that responsible companies assign someone to to monitor forums like this and produce a weekly report on ideas and suggestions for their consideration. They could do worse than set up a 'Product Suggestions' forum here too...

Given the content and approach of some users the 'forum monitor' would need pretty thick skin though

Thanks for taking the time to correct my post.

...thanks for your offer, Deric. Just take a Rex-File and mute one slice (select it and click the mute-button or select the mute option from the menu). Save this and play it back in Kontakt. If the loop plays "silence" at the respective beat you've muted everything should be fine.

loachm I did this (haven't used ReCycle for ages! - it really is a great compact program. Shame I can't drag/open it in to my DAW though...) using a file that comes with ReCycle (80_EPIANO_F#min9Dmin9) so that you (or anyone) can repeat with the same file. I sliced it, muted various slices, saved it as a REX2 file, opened it in Kontakt 2.2.1 and:

Kontakt 2.2.1 plays the file correctly.

i.e. There was no truncation/concatenation of the file due to the mutes or, in English, the file remained the correct length.

I didn't go searching for a file with a blank first beat but instead used the above file and silenced the first few slices, again:

Kontakt 2.2.1 plays the file correctly.

Whilst doing this though I did wonder if you'd previously set the loop-length to begin at the start of the first slice with valid data (audio) in it? As this would shorten the loop if the first slice(s) contained no audio. Apologies if this is not the case, it was just a thought.

As for the '100% Stretch Test' - I'll leave that for you to play with when your laptop returns! (That's my way of saying I don't know how to 'Expand Slices' in Kontakt!).

Anyway hope this helps you.

A lot of NI bashing stuff...

I really don't get this, and please feel free to explain, I really like Kontakt (I used to use Halion 1 & 2) - what commercial soft sampler is better than Kontakt?

NI are frequently updating their software (and often including new features) for FREE... They certainly release useful updates on a more regular basis than any of the other 'big' manufacturers (that have a large product range) that I can think of - again please feel free to correct this - but bear in mind both the quality of NI's products, the range of products they maintain, and the frequency of updates they release.

Now I think I'll go an find my flame-shield

[loachm]

...thank you so much for the test, deric - it really makes me want to have my laptop back again!

...to map the slices to single notes in Kontakt you' have to use the button called "Map Slices to Groups..." (my fault) and it can be found in the Loop Editor...

...one last question, though - it is still possible to save a Rex-File within a Kontakt instrument without Kontakt converting it to a Wav-File?

[Ceej]

Hey Ceej - 27 posts in five years - I feel honoured! (especially if this is your only KVR ID ).

Hehe. Yep, this is my only ID. Actually I think KVR must have lost some of my post history - I was pretty active back in the early days, way more than 27 posts' worth. And, indeed, "Search for all posts by Ceej" only goes back to late 2005. Anyway.

2. Allow export of files in a format compatible with older versions (of the same software). This is particularly useful for collaborations etc.

Yeah, I can understand that. It seems like it's less crucial with a free update, though - there's at least no financial reason why two collaborators would need to be on different versions of the software. Granted, I suppose there are other reasons than financial that someone wouldn't want to update. Although, from NI's perspective, I can see why they would want to give everyone as much reason to update as soon as possible, too!

Regards writing to NI (or any other company) I could spend all day writing suggestions that may get no further than their email Trash folder let alone be considered - and if all users did this it would be mayhem for a company to try and keep track of, let alone reply to, all the mail.

Mmm, that's unfortunately too true these days. I guess my suggestion to write to them was probably a little flippant. Lack of response is indeed one of the reasons I've stopped using Cubase, and one of the main reasons I'm seriously considering going back to the Cakewalk fold (used to use Pro Audio back in the day... man, I'm starting to sound like an old fart here, aren't I?).

[loachm]

I really don't get this, and please feel free to explain, I really like Kontakt (I used to use Halion 1 & 2) - what commercial soft sampler is better than Kontakt?

NI are frequently updating their software (and often including new features) for FREE... They certainly release useful updates on a more regular basis than any of the other 'big' manufacturers (that have a large product range) that I can think of - again please feel free to correct this - but bear in mind both the quality of NI's products, the range of products they maintain, and the frequency of updates they release.

Now I think I'll go an find my flame-shield

...do you sometimes visit the NI forums - a lot of what people write there is actually true!
I'm really a fan of NI, I have Komplete 2 (hopefully the upgrade to K4 will arrive soon), but NI hasn't treated their customers very well in the last years (let me show you some random examples).

Just look at Kontakt 2 - I have it for almost exactly two years now and one major feature (at least for me), Rex-support, has been implemented to the full extent just now (and we're talking about a commonly used format here).

When I received Absynth 2 back then, it didn't work on Windows 98, ME, 2000 whatsoever, although a support of these had been advertised. The reply I got from the support staff was that I should get XP - if I wanted to use Absynth I had to pay the upgrade to XP as well as the upgrade to Cubase SX as VST didn't work on XP.

They have also discontinued serveral products without making bigger announcements. In my case they had discontinued Komplete Sound from one day to the next in October 2005, although I had planned to buy Komplete Sound as a Komplete Care 2005 user on Chrismas 2006 - I was simply cut off.

The same would have happened if I hadn't bought Kore or the K4 upgrade - from March, 1st 2007 there is no upgrade path for Komplete 2 owners available any longer.

Komplete Care 2006 owners did not receive any update until October 2006.

People are constantly complaining about the NI support not replying to their support request (I never had this problem, actually)

Komplete 3 owners that bought for example Akoustik Piano at the NI-versary summer last year had to see that this has just been included to Komplete 4 in October (Absynth Sounds have been included in Absynth 4, FM7 Sounds Vol. 2 have been included in FM8).

There are only two products upgrade paths for Komplete - people with more than two products are told that they should get rid of these when they wanted to upgrade to Komplete (any other upgrade paths simply aren't available).

And last, but not least, I haven't seen any stable release from them since... I don't know. Every new version is so full of bugs, it's embarrasing.

And the quality of my Kore controller - scratches on the panel around every knob, one loose button that fell off as well as some loose rubber foot.

Actually, I can understand when people are bashing NI - I really love their instruments, but I will only buy anything that's necessary, so that I won't get cut off any update line. NI will have to deliver proper working products and they will have to change their - partly shabby - business practises before I'll be a trusting customer again. (...and still I once fell in love with their products ... lucky NI)

[Deric]

loachm, thanks for taking the time to reply on this - I do understand where you are coming from on this now and would point out that I have 'come from' the following 'NI History'...

Komplete 2.
Guitar Rig 1. (£349.99) with a totally crap interface (Rig Kontrol 1).
Elektric Piano.
Komplete Care 2005.
Komplete 3.
Komplete Care 2006.
Komplete 4.

So I pay £350 for Guitar Rig with a controller that I don't use, I buy Elektric Piano - and both get included in subsequent releases of Komplete.

You know what? I bought them because at the time I wanted them .

Sure NI have made mistakes - but can anyone name me just one company that has not only held their hands up so honestly but who has also gone way beyond expectations in trying to improve, and recover, customer faith?

For example, Komplete Care 2006 owners - free Komplete 4.

Komplete 4 delays: FREE e150 voucher + FREE Massive synth.

I don't know about anyone else here but I can't think of one single company that has gone so far to try and restore consumer confidence (not in this (music) market anyway).

NI have realised their mistakes and have responded accordingly - they've abandoned the Komplete Care idea, committed to a once-annually major upgrade cycle, have admitted they've made mistakes, and taken major steps to try and regain consumer confidence - none of which they had to do...

We all make mistakes - it's how we subsequently deal with them that matters, and I for one think NI are on the right path. Their products are great and they are improving how they deal with their customers.

Take Steinberg - they can't even admit they've f*cked up let alone apologise - and I can't see them ever giving free product vouchers let alone free VSTs as a 'we're sorry' gesture... and neither have (to my knowledge) any of the other 'big' names.

Sure NI have made a few mistakes - mainly in their admin side of things and product-future-planning etc - but, man, have they tried hard to both publicly acknowledge it and recompense their users for the inconvenience.

I don't know about you or anyone else here but IMO credit where it's due - and credit to NI for having the balls to own up to mistakes and do something about it - a lesson Steinberg should seriously learn whilst they still have some customers left.

Cheers,

Deric.

[soniccouture]

Deric, I'd just like to say that it's nice to hear someone sticking up for NI for a change, I agree that much of the bashing that goes on is unreasonable.

[rpc9943]

I just wish initialization of each instance wouldnt take so freaking long... like 20 secs ive noticed... or so

RonC