Ok, we will now try to bring the three chords together.
Basically, we can use them in any order.
Probably the most plausible progression of the three being
I-IV-V-I
In that progression we find the two "super plausible" movements (major chord root goes up a fourth) twice. From I to IV and from V to one.
But, the progression also exists in other variations, such as
I-IV-V-IV
This is probably sounding slightly less predictable, yet it's got a strong character and I'm sure most of you will know it from countless hits, such as "La Bamba" or "Walking On Sunshine".
But really, you can find them in almost any combinations. For example, for a middle part you may just have a few bars of V-IV only, before you return to the I chord. Or IV-V.
So, here's the first music example I posted (the country-latin-carribean thing) with all the three of them. In the first 4 bars you will hear a I-IV-V-IV progression, then, in the second 4 bars, it's I-IV-V-I. And it's still in F, so the chords are:
||: F | Bb | C | Bb | F | Bb | C | F :||
Here it is:
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... I-IV-V.mp3
What you probably may notice, that in bars 3 and 4, when it goes back from the dominant to the subdominant chord, rather than "properly resolving" into the tonic, it doesn't feel as "home" as in the end, when the C chord in bar 7 resolves properly to the F.
This is an important thing in a lot of functional chord progressions. A lot of classical music seems to be about properly resolving whereas in pop and whatever styles, it's not always that much neccesary (see "Walking On Sunshine" where it just keeps going on like I-IV-V-IV).
The thing is being aware of the resolving effect and using it. Absolutely overgeneralized: You want a more "lose" or "open" character - don't resolve. You want a more "plausible" character - resolve.
However, time for a little inbetween resume.
As I already said in my last post: You can see, style-wise it's not exactly about the amount of chords you use, it's largely about *how* you use them, even if the source material is just a few basic triad or 7th chords.
in other words, it's all about the musical context.
Further, even if for now it might not be that obvious to you just yet, the shown chord movements are those that a really, really large part of our western music is based on - or well, you may prefer the term "references to".
In some the next posts I will be dealing with a few things that might explain why this is so.
But the first thing I'd like to continue with is some background theory. When doing the examples, as shitty as they might be, I felt seriously limited in my choice of chords, or better, in my options of "enhancing" them.
So, I will be posting some information about how to possibly enhance the chords themselves and how to technically do it.
Some Chord Progression Stuff
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 13442 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 13442 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Originally, I wanted to continue with some further chord progressions, but as said in my previous post, when I've been preparing the examples of the previous posts, I just felt sort of limited in terms of chord variations.
That's why I'd like to describe some possibilities of "chord enhancements".
Note: The next two posts are a LOT of reading. And some of what I'm going to write will probably be unclear at first. But I'll try to proceed with some examples which should make things way more clear. And, if everything is going well, this might be a massive eye opener. It defenitely has been for me.
As you may remember from my first post in this thread, there's 7 chords in each major key, one building up on each step of the scale.
The "chord construction principle" was that we would just put diatonic thirds onto the root notes.
So far I dealt with 7th chords only, but the "slap another third on top of it" method is working for further chord tones as well.
So far we have:
1 - 3 - 5 - 7
When we continue to slap thirds on top of this, we will get something like this:
1 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 9 - 11 - 13
A little terminology excourse:
While (in most modern harmony contexts at least) the basic 4 part chord (everything up to the 7th) is used to sort of "describe" the function of a chord, the additional notes are called "options", "color notes", "extensions" or so. You may find various namings in various documents. I prefer the term "option".
Ok, here's an example for a C chord in C major with all possible option notes:
C - E - G - B - D - F - A
As you can see, this chord is now using up all possible notes of the C major scale.
Of course, using all the notes at once isn't making much sense for a variety of reasons:
- As this technique could (and will) be applied to all chords in a given key, we would end up with 7 chords all using all 7 notes. Obviously, there'd be not much distinction between them anymore.
- Very often, we're dealing with, say, 4-part voicings. You simply can't squeeze all 7 notes into them.
- Probably the most important bit: There's some of those option notes that won't sound too well. They may even sound wrong. For instance, in the C chord example from above, the F would clash with the third of the chord (an E), so most likely that's a less than ideal choice. Just play a C triad (CEG) and play an F on top and you'll hear for yourself. These notes are often refered to as "to omit" or even as "forbidden". Take that with a grain of salt, there's exceptions. But when dealing with basic principles, it makes sense to be aware of them and probably not use them for a start either.
Still, to explore all possible option notes, we will start with building up those "full" chords on each step of a scale.
Here's what things will look like in the key of C (with some comments regarding the "forbidden" notes):
I : C-E-G-B-D-F-A
Forbidden note(s): The F, as it's clashing with the E (can be used in a sus4 chord, but in that case the E will be replaced).
II : D-F-A-C-E-G-B
Forbidden note(s): The B, it'd most likely clash with the C. Exceptions: Modal funky vamps (more on that probably later).
III : E-G-B-D-F-A-C
Forbidden note(s): The F, as it'd clash with the E. The C, as it'd either clash with the B or result in a somewhat "unclear" character.
IV : F-A-C-E-G-B-D
Forbidden note(s): The B, as it might clash with the C and also result in a somewhat unclear sound. Note that it's used quite often in modal contexts though (modal: "not-exactly-functional" harmony).
V : G-B-D-F-A-C-E
Forbidden note(s): The C, as it would clash with the B. As for the I chord, sus4 can be used, but again, in that case the 3rd (which is the B) would be replaced.
VI : A-C-E-G-B-D-F
Forbidden note(s): The F, as it would probably clash with the E or result in a somewhat unclear sound.
VII : B-D-F-A-C-E-G
Forbidden note(s): The C, as it would clash with the root. The G, as it would result in an unclear sound.
Alright, just as with our 4-part "basic" chords, it wouldn't make much sense to only list them up in C, so we better try to find a formula as well. Again, as with the 4-part chords, we would just analyze the intervals of the optional notes and add them to the chord symbol (another reason why being familiar with intervals is a massive benefit).
Here's what our major scale chord list looks like (I put the "forbidden" notes in brackets):
Imaj7/9/(11)/13
IImin7/9/11/(13)
IIImin7/(b9)/11/(b13)
IVmaj7/9/(#11)/13
V7/9/(11)/13
VImin7/9/11/(b13)
VIImin7b5/(b9)/11/(b13)
This list, along with some interval and scale knowledge (really, not much) is *the* essential list to keep in mind. A lot of the list also applies to minor scales (more on that later on), so it's really a great idea to have it in mind. Don't worry, no need to learn it just now, it'll come way easier with some practice.
So, we do now have a list of possible chord enhancements. Yet, as you may see, there's not that much "forbidden" notes - how will we actually "implement" the various option notes?
I will take care of that in the next posts. The very next one explaining some "voicing rules".
That's why I'd like to describe some possibilities of "chord enhancements".
Note: The next two posts are a LOT of reading. And some of what I'm going to write will probably be unclear at first. But I'll try to proceed with some examples which should make things way more clear. And, if everything is going well, this might be a massive eye opener. It defenitely has been for me.
As you may remember from my first post in this thread, there's 7 chords in each major key, one building up on each step of the scale.
The "chord construction principle" was that we would just put diatonic thirds onto the root notes.
So far I dealt with 7th chords only, but the "slap another third on top of it" method is working for further chord tones as well.
So far we have:
1 - 3 - 5 - 7
When we continue to slap thirds on top of this, we will get something like this:
1 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 9 - 11 - 13
A little terminology excourse:
While (in most modern harmony contexts at least) the basic 4 part chord (everything up to the 7th) is used to sort of "describe" the function of a chord, the additional notes are called "options", "color notes", "extensions" or so. You may find various namings in various documents. I prefer the term "option".
Ok, here's an example for a C chord in C major with all possible option notes:
C - E - G - B - D - F - A
As you can see, this chord is now using up all possible notes of the C major scale.
Of course, using all the notes at once isn't making much sense for a variety of reasons:
- As this technique could (and will) be applied to all chords in a given key, we would end up with 7 chords all using all 7 notes. Obviously, there'd be not much distinction between them anymore.
- Very often, we're dealing with, say, 4-part voicings. You simply can't squeeze all 7 notes into them.
- Probably the most important bit: There's some of those option notes that won't sound too well. They may even sound wrong. For instance, in the C chord example from above, the F would clash with the third of the chord (an E), so most likely that's a less than ideal choice. Just play a C triad (CEG) and play an F on top and you'll hear for yourself. These notes are often refered to as "to omit" or even as "forbidden". Take that with a grain of salt, there's exceptions. But when dealing with basic principles, it makes sense to be aware of them and probably not use them for a start either.
Still, to explore all possible option notes, we will start with building up those "full" chords on each step of a scale.
Here's what things will look like in the key of C (with some comments regarding the "forbidden" notes):
I : C-E-G-B-D-F-A
Forbidden note(s): The F, as it's clashing with the E (can be used in a sus4 chord, but in that case the E will be replaced).
II : D-F-A-C-E-G-B
Forbidden note(s): The B, it'd most likely clash with the C. Exceptions: Modal funky vamps (more on that probably later).
III : E-G-B-D-F-A-C
Forbidden note(s): The F, as it'd clash with the E. The C, as it'd either clash with the B or result in a somewhat "unclear" character.
IV : F-A-C-E-G-B-D
Forbidden note(s): The B, as it might clash with the C and also result in a somewhat unclear sound. Note that it's used quite often in modal contexts though (modal: "not-exactly-functional" harmony).
V : G-B-D-F-A-C-E
Forbidden note(s): The C, as it would clash with the B. As for the I chord, sus4 can be used, but again, in that case the 3rd (which is the B) would be replaced.
VI : A-C-E-G-B-D-F
Forbidden note(s): The F, as it would probably clash with the E or result in a somewhat unclear sound.
VII : B-D-F-A-C-E-G
Forbidden note(s): The C, as it would clash with the root. The G, as it would result in an unclear sound.
Alright, just as with our 4-part "basic" chords, it wouldn't make much sense to only list them up in C, so we better try to find a formula as well. Again, as with the 4-part chords, we would just analyze the intervals of the optional notes and add them to the chord symbol (another reason why being familiar with intervals is a massive benefit).
Here's what our major scale chord list looks like (I put the "forbidden" notes in brackets):
Imaj7/9/(11)/13
IImin7/9/11/(13)
IIImin7/(b9)/11/(b13)
IVmaj7/9/(#11)/13
V7/9/(11)/13
VImin7/9/11/(b13)
VIImin7b5/(b9)/11/(b13)
This list, along with some interval and scale knowledge (really, not much) is *the* essential list to keep in mind. A lot of the list also applies to minor scales (more on that later on), so it's really a great idea to have it in mind. Don't worry, no need to learn it just now, it'll come way easier with some practice.
So, we do now have a list of possible chord enhancements. Yet, as you may see, there's not that much "forbidden" notes - how will we actually "implement" the various option notes?
I will take care of that in the next posts. The very next one explaining some "voicing rules".
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
-
- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
Nice post Sascha. A couple of points:-
In English your "option" notes are almost always called "tensions" (short for extension) and your "forbidden" almost always called "avoid" notes.
I've got a few doubts about what can be called an avoid note too, but I'm sure you'll make that clearer in your next post.
In English your "option" notes are almost always called "tensions" (short for extension) and your "forbidden" almost always called "avoid" notes.
I've got a few doubts about what can be called an avoid note too, but I'm sure you'll make that clearer in your next post.
Now with improved MIDI jitter!
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 13442 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Alright, here's the "voicing rules" mentioned in my previous post.
These usually work best in a 4-part chord context, but a lot of them also apply to both triads and larger part voicings.
About the practical realisation of things: What you need to know about is what note has what function in the chord in question.
For instance, you have an Fmaj7 chord F-A-C-E and know about the "9 for 1" rule. In that Fmaj7 chord, the F would be the 1, so we would replace it with a G, which happens to be the 9th (again, interval knowledge helps a LOT!), the resulting chord being G-A-C-E.
When you try these things out, make sure you double the bassnote an octave below. Or have your sequencer doing it. As you'll see, the 1 in the chord itself will often be replaced, so to get the preception right, we need a bass note coming from somewhere else.
1) 7 or maj7 for 1.
Only applies for those chord forms that don't allready have a 7th present. In case you're dealing with j7 chords, make sure not to play the root above the j7, as it will create an unwanted b2 or b9 tension (as said, there's exceptions, but not for now).
2) 9 (b/#9) for 1.
Make sure not to use the same 1 that you replaced by the 7th allready. In case you do so, the resulting chord would be some Xadd9 type rather than an X9 type (perhaps more about that later on).
3) 9 (2) for 3.
Usually only applies to major chords as the major third overtone is so strong it'd become unclear if you'd leave out the third on minor chords - again, there's exceptions, in context it might work for minor chords as well, but the general consensus usually says that minor chords need a minor third to be present.
Note: You will VERY often find a chord symbol like "add9omit3rd" for this - which isn't the most clever name for it. Sus2 or just 2 is making much more sense.
4) 11 for 5
Only applicable to minor chords, with major chords it'd clash with the 3rd (yes, especially for guitar players there's exceptions, but we're talking about some generalize-able stuff here).
5) 4 for 3
Applicable for major chords only, as said above, minor chords usually require the 3rd to be present. Resulting chord symbol of this replacement is Xsus4.
Exception for minor chords: The min7b5 chord. The b5 overtones will strongly keep the minor character, even when the 3- is replaced by the 4th.
6) #11 for 5.
Only applicable for major chords, a minor chord would become minb5 (or diminished), which is quite another thing.
7) 13 (b13) for 5.
Usually used for major chords, on minor chords it might result in a clash with the 7th. There's quite some exceptions for this one though (min7/13 in modal contexts, minj7/13, just to name those two).
8) 6 for 7
Often used to replace major7 chords in case the root has to be the melody note (to avoid minor second or minor nine intervals). Sometimes used for minor chords to give them a bit "loose" character (quite sometimes it might happen on the subdominant chord), or as a tonic chord for certain jazz and/or modal things.
9) 6 for 5
Used sometimes in case a 7th isn't allready present. Best example would be having a plain major or minor triad and then simply replacing the 5th with a 6th.
Some more or less important notes:
- The plain fifth could almost allways be left out, unless you're dealing with powerchords (which this post isn't all about) or in case it's needed as a melody note. The reason probably being that it's such a strong harmonic your ear will always add it automatically.
- Chord extensions (anything beyond the 3 or 4 part basic chord, generally 9, 11, 13) should be placed rather high in the voicing, to avoid an unclear sound. Well, you can place them anywhere, but once they're getting too low and would probably be recognized as a root, you may not like them anymore. This is really quite some generalization, you could do some further reading on "lower interval limits" if you really wanted to know. But with a bit of practice things should just become as clear.
- 9, 11 and 13 chords require a 7th to be present. That's some sort of international agreement which actually makes sense. In case the 7th isn't present they happen to be named like this:
9 becomes add9 (or add b/#9) or eventually 2 or sus2 (in case the 3rd is replaced by the 9th/2nd).
11 becomes add11 (or add#11), sometimes mistakenly notated as 4/add4.
13 sometimes becomes add13, but usually 6 is used (and making more sense as well, from a functional point of view).
- Some addons to the previous note: In that sort of international agreement, when you find some chord symbol like F9, it's actually an F7/9. When you see something like G13 it's a G7/13.
In the latter case, there's something else to be aware of. Most chord sheet writers assume that you are aware of harmonic basics and their use in whatever style. So, when there's a G13 written, what they *want* to hear is a 13, but if you find it appropriate, you may as well add a 9th on your own.
- These "rules" have nothing (or well, at least not much) to do with voice leading. Voice leading is much more of a concern when moving from one chord to another, especially when writing chord things for sections. I won't go into that, there's a lot of useful information about the classical side of things already to be found in JumpingJackFlashs posts.
Jazz, pop, rock and whatever may allow for more freedom when dealing with voice leading, but a lot of, say, writers for big band have a very strong knowledge of classical theory - and there's good reasons for this. IMO, classical voice leading is still sounding the most plausible, plus it's almost always giving the individual players of a section something to play which you could as well listen to on its own.
But then, for now, and for accompanying chords, the issue isn't too relevant.
And ANOTHER IMPORTANT note:
Those are generalized rules that will work in a LOT of situations, but A) They won't work in ALL situations (example: powerchord rock stuff) and B) There are a LOT of exceptions, just as for almost any rule there is.
They do however apply very well for learning/teaching and "bread and butter" situations, so before anybody starts to complain I'd recommend to check them out first.
If you have any questions, feel free to shoot away, but I'll try to demonstrate the practical use of quite some of these "rules" with a few examples coming later.
These usually work best in a 4-part chord context, but a lot of them also apply to both triads and larger part voicings.
About the practical realisation of things: What you need to know about is what note has what function in the chord in question.
For instance, you have an Fmaj7 chord F-A-C-E and know about the "9 for 1" rule. In that Fmaj7 chord, the F would be the 1, so we would replace it with a G, which happens to be the 9th (again, interval knowledge helps a LOT!), the resulting chord being G-A-C-E.
When you try these things out, make sure you double the bassnote an octave below. Or have your sequencer doing it. As you'll see, the 1 in the chord itself will often be replaced, so to get the preception right, we need a bass note coming from somewhere else.
1) 7 or maj7 for 1.
Only applies for those chord forms that don't allready have a 7th present. In case you're dealing with j7 chords, make sure not to play the root above the j7, as it will create an unwanted b2 or b9 tension (as said, there's exceptions, but not for now).
2) 9 (b/#9) for 1.
Make sure not to use the same 1 that you replaced by the 7th allready. In case you do so, the resulting chord would be some Xadd9 type rather than an X9 type (perhaps more about that later on).
3) 9 (2) for 3.
Usually only applies to major chords as the major third overtone is so strong it'd become unclear if you'd leave out the third on minor chords - again, there's exceptions, in context it might work for minor chords as well, but the general consensus usually says that minor chords need a minor third to be present.
Note: You will VERY often find a chord symbol like "add9omit3rd" for this - which isn't the most clever name for it. Sus2 or just 2 is making much more sense.
4) 11 for 5
Only applicable to minor chords, with major chords it'd clash with the 3rd (yes, especially for guitar players there's exceptions, but we're talking about some generalize-able stuff here).
5) 4 for 3
Applicable for major chords only, as said above, minor chords usually require the 3rd to be present. Resulting chord symbol of this replacement is Xsus4.
Exception for minor chords: The min7b5 chord. The b5 overtones will strongly keep the minor character, even when the 3- is replaced by the 4th.
6) #11 for 5.
Only applicable for major chords, a minor chord would become minb5 (or diminished), which is quite another thing.
7) 13 (b13) for 5.
Usually used for major chords, on minor chords it might result in a clash with the 7th. There's quite some exceptions for this one though (min7/13 in modal contexts, minj7/13, just to name those two).
8) 6 for 7
Often used to replace major7 chords in case the root has to be the melody note (to avoid minor second or minor nine intervals). Sometimes used for minor chords to give them a bit "loose" character (quite sometimes it might happen on the subdominant chord), or as a tonic chord for certain jazz and/or modal things.
9) 6 for 5
Used sometimes in case a 7th isn't allready present. Best example would be having a plain major or minor triad and then simply replacing the 5th with a 6th.
Some more or less important notes:
- The plain fifth could almost allways be left out, unless you're dealing with powerchords (which this post isn't all about) or in case it's needed as a melody note. The reason probably being that it's such a strong harmonic your ear will always add it automatically.
- Chord extensions (anything beyond the 3 or 4 part basic chord, generally 9, 11, 13) should be placed rather high in the voicing, to avoid an unclear sound. Well, you can place them anywhere, but once they're getting too low and would probably be recognized as a root, you may not like them anymore. This is really quite some generalization, you could do some further reading on "lower interval limits" if you really wanted to know. But with a bit of practice things should just become as clear.
- 9, 11 and 13 chords require a 7th to be present. That's some sort of international agreement which actually makes sense. In case the 7th isn't present they happen to be named like this:
9 becomes add9 (or add b/#9) or eventually 2 or sus2 (in case the 3rd is replaced by the 9th/2nd).
11 becomes add11 (or add#11), sometimes mistakenly notated as 4/add4.
13 sometimes becomes add13, but usually 6 is used (and making more sense as well, from a functional point of view).
- Some addons to the previous note: In that sort of international agreement, when you find some chord symbol like F9, it's actually an F7/9. When you see something like G13 it's a G7/13.
In the latter case, there's something else to be aware of. Most chord sheet writers assume that you are aware of harmonic basics and their use in whatever style. So, when there's a G13 written, what they *want* to hear is a 13, but if you find it appropriate, you may as well add a 9th on your own.
- These "rules" have nothing (or well, at least not much) to do with voice leading. Voice leading is much more of a concern when moving from one chord to another, especially when writing chord things for sections. I won't go into that, there's a lot of useful information about the classical side of things already to be found in JumpingJackFlashs posts.
Jazz, pop, rock and whatever may allow for more freedom when dealing with voice leading, but a lot of, say, writers for big band have a very strong knowledge of classical theory - and there's good reasons for this. IMO, classical voice leading is still sounding the most plausible, plus it's almost always giving the individual players of a section something to play which you could as well listen to on its own.
But then, for now, and for accompanying chords, the issue isn't too relevant.
And ANOTHER IMPORTANT note:
Those are generalized rules that will work in a LOT of situations, but A) They won't work in ALL situations (example: powerchord rock stuff) and B) There are a LOT of exceptions, just as for almost any rule there is.
They do however apply very well for learning/teaching and "bread and butter" situations, so before anybody starts to complain I'd recommend to check them out first.
If you have any questions, feel free to shoot away, but I'll try to demonstrate the practical use of quite some of these "rules" with a few examples coming later.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 13442 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Ah, you're of course right. Should've used those terms - will correct the post.nuffink wrote: In English your "option" notes are almost always called "tensions" (short for extension) and your "forbidden" almost always called "avoid" notes.
Cheers for that.
I didn't exactly want to elaborate on this much further - was it too unclear? In that case I'll try to correct things.I've got a few doubts about what can be called an avoid note too, but I'm sure you'll make that clearer in your next post.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
-
- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
You explained the avoid notes in terms of the modes. Things are subtly different when playing notes over chords. For instance if you're playing the Dorian over the ii-7 there is no avoid note as there's no minor 2nd/minor 9th diatonically available. The same with the Lydian mode being played over the IVmaj7.Sascha Franck wrote:I didn't exactly want to elaborate on this much further - was it too unclear? In that case I'll try to correct things.I've got a few doubts about what can be called an avoid note too, but I'm sure you'll make that clearer in your next post.
I won't labour the point, I'm sure you catch my drift.
Now with improved MIDI jitter!
-
- KVRAF
- 1975 posts since 4 Feb, 2005
your "x for 1" posts... could you clarify the principle?
Or are you saying make, say, CEGC into CEGB?
Are you saying that for a 7th chord voicing you can swap the 7 for the 1? I mean, let's say you have CEG; if you replace it with BEG, it REALLY doesn't sound like a I chord anymore...? Sounds more like an inverted iii chord, at least when you swap them out.1) 7 or maj7 for 1.
Only applies for those chord forms that don't allready have a 7th present. In case you're dealing with j7 chords, make sure not to play the root above the j7, as it will create an unwanted b2 or b9 tension (as said, there's exceptions, but not for now).
Or are you saying make, say, CEGC into CEGB?
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 13442 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Well, apart from the thing that to me, modes and chords are almost 100% identical, I refered to chords only. And in that case, one of the possible IImin7 chord tensions would be a 13th, which usually is an avoid note (not in case of some modal stuff and funky pattern, but as said, I'd like to stick to some generalizations at first).nuffink wrote: You explained the avoid notes in terms of the modes. Things are subtly different when playing notes over chords. For instance if you're playing the Dorian over the ii-7 there is no avoid note as there's no minor 2nd/minor 9th diatonically available. The same with the Lydian mode being played over the IVmaj7.
I won't labour the point, I'm sure you catch my drift.
And really, no need to have modes involved right now. Besides, in modes, the avoid notes are the same. You can usually use them as passing notes, but using, say, a 13 as a target note on a min7 chord probably won't be too much of a great idea - at first of course (I actually often use it, but that's got to do more with whatever modal soundscapings...).
Sure...Toxikator wrote:your "x for 1" posts... could you clarify the principle?
If you read my post properly, you would've seen that I was explicitely recommending to double the bass/root note an octave lower than the chord.Are you saying that for a 7th chord voicing you can swap the 7 for the 1? I mean, let's say you have CEG; if you replace it with BEG, it REALLY doesn't sound like a I chord anymore...? Sounds more like an inverted iii chord, at least when you swap them out.
And in that case BEG/C (with the C being 8ba) makes up for a nice Cmaj7 chord.
That'd obviously be working as well.Or are you saying make, say, CEGC into CEGB?
Both ways are covered by my "voicing rule" post.
Ok, something more about the issue:
Of course, when you follow my 9 for 1 "rule" on a major chord, a Cmaj7 would turn into D-E-G-B. Which clearly is an Emin7 chord. But, with a C in the bass, it's an absolutely uber-common chord voicing for a Cmaj9. The first two things you change in a voicing once you got the root note covered by a bass are 1 and 5.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
I didn't explain myself too well. Rather than derail this, I'll start another thread and try to be a bit clearer.Sascha Franck wrote:Well, apart from the thing that to me, modes and chords are almost 100% identical, I refered to chords only. And in that case, one of the possible IImin7 chord tensions would be a 13th, which usually is an avoid note (not in case of some modal stuff and funky pattern, but as said, I'd like to stick to some generalizations at first).nuffink wrote: You explained the avoid notes in terms of the modes. Things are subtly different when playing notes over chords. For instance if you're playing the Dorian over the ii-7 there is no avoid note as there's no minor 2nd/minor 9th diatonically available. The same with the Lydian mode being played over the IVmaj7.
I won't labour the point, I'm sure you catch my drift.
And really, no need to have modes involved right now. Besides, in modes, the avoid notes are the same. You can usually use them as passing notes, but using, say, a 13 as a target note on a min7 chord probably won't be too much of a great idea - at first of course (I actually often use it, but that's got to do more with whatever modal soundscapings...).
Now with improved MIDI jitter!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 13442 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Ok, please link to it!nuffink wrote: I didn't explain myself too well. Rather than derail this, I'll start another thread and try to be a bit clearer.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2425943Sascha Franck wrote:Ok, please link to it!nuffink wrote: I didn't explain myself too well. Rather than derail this, I'll start another thread and try to be a bit clearer.
Now with improved MIDI jitter!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 13442 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Ok, let's just continue to apply those chord "enhancements" to the most important chord types we find in most music - and in our major scale.
For the upcoming examples, I will stick to 4part 7th chords (I may come up with some further examples on 3part chords such as triads later on, but from an explanatory point of view, 4part chords work better).
I will further mostly stick to the 3 most often used chords to be found in a major key:
Major 7, Dominant 7 and Minor 7.
All the following examples are for an F chord, so you can compare things side by side.
What you will hear is the basic 4 part chord, then followed by the "enhanced" version.
I've been using all 4 inversions of the chord, so you have a better idea when things work and when they don't (or just not as fine).
In addition to the MP3 files, I'll post MIDI files of the chord part. Should you be fooling around with them, make absolutely sure to add an F in the bass or let your sequencer do the job, otherwise the chord will very often sound unclear, as the root is replaced a lot of times.
An example of what you will hear for the Fmaj7-Fmaj9 treatment:
Fmaj7, root position.
F-A-C-E
Fmaj9 with the 9 for 1 voicing "rule" applied.
G-A-C-E
Fmaj7, first inversion.
A-C-E-F
Fmaj9, same rule applied
A-C-E-G
Fmaj7, second inversion.
C-E-F-A
Fmaj9,...
C-E-G-A
Fmaj7, third inversion
E-F-A-C
Fmaj9,...
E-G-A-C
Note: The last inversion is played an octave lower. I found that to sound better. You can just bring it up an octave in the MIDI files, should you like to.
The same principle applies to all the chords I will post, so I will always only explain the basic "chord treatment".
I will not explore all the possibilities for all the chords, but there's quite some...
Ok, let's start with possible maj7 chord treatments.
We find maj7 chords on our I and IV degree of the key.
An option valid for both would be using a 9th.
We will follow the "9 for 1" rule.
So, in our Fmaj7, the F would be replaced by the G.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... 7-maj9.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... 7-maj9.mid
Really one of the most common major chord treatments. Also, in first inversion, compared to the maj7 chord, the minor second appearing on the topmost two voices is gone.
Another very common thing would be to play a 6th instead of the major 7th. As said in the voicing "rules" post, this is especially useful once we have the root on top of the voicing, as the maj7 would clash with it. So, listen especially to what the 6th will do to the first inversion.
We are obviously following the "6 for 7" rule (the E becomes a D).
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... maj7-6.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... maj7-6.mid
Another way to incorporate the same note (D) in a different way would be treating it as a 13th, in this case replacing the 5th.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... -maj13.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... -maj13.mid
And of course it's also possible to use both the 9th and the 6th in one chord. Rules applied: 9 for 1, 6 for 7.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... j7-6_9.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... j7-6_9.mid
And we can of course do the same for the 9th and the 13th.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... aj9_13.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... aj9_13.mid
For major chords (both triads and 7th chords), there's another option of incoporating the same note as the 9th, this time as a 2nd, replacing the 3rd (we don't necessarily need a 3rd for major chords). Especially when dealing with plain major triads, this is an extremely common thing in pop stuff. Here it is in a maj7 chord context though.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... j7sus2.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... j7sus2.mid
Ok. All these "modifications" can be done to both of the maj7 chords we find in our major keys.
However, as I already mentioned in one of my last posts, the IVmaj7 chord can as well be treated with a #11, depending on the context. To my ears, it gets a bit more of a "lose" character. Note that in a functional chord progression, it most likely wouldn't work too well. In a modal context however (such as on a plain one chord vamp) it can be very beautiful.
Just listen to a few variations.
First a plain maj7#11 chord, we follow our "11 for 5" rule, so with our Fmaj7 chord, the C becomes a B.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... 7%2311.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... 7%2311.mid
With a 9 added ("9 for 1" rule).
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... _%2311.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... _%2311.mid
Then, with a 6th instead of the 7th and a 9th instead of the root.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... _%2311.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... _%2311.mid
And finally, with 9, #11 and 13. This time I applied a "special" rule. As the 5th is already replaced by the 13th, we can't replace it with the #11 anymore. But, as we don't really need a 3rd on major chords, I replaced the 3rd with the #11.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... 311_13.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... 311_13.mid
Alright, the last 2-3 examples are really taking us far away from the usually more or less "stable" character of a major chord. And well, as they are based on a IV chord, they are not exactly expected to be too stable.
Ok, in the next post, I will continue with dominant 7th chord tensions.
But first I gotta go shopping and cook for the demanding GF...
For the upcoming examples, I will stick to 4part 7th chords (I may come up with some further examples on 3part chords such as triads later on, but from an explanatory point of view, 4part chords work better).
I will further mostly stick to the 3 most often used chords to be found in a major key:
Major 7, Dominant 7 and Minor 7.
All the following examples are for an F chord, so you can compare things side by side.
What you will hear is the basic 4 part chord, then followed by the "enhanced" version.
I've been using all 4 inversions of the chord, so you have a better idea when things work and when they don't (or just not as fine).
In addition to the MP3 files, I'll post MIDI files of the chord part. Should you be fooling around with them, make absolutely sure to add an F in the bass or let your sequencer do the job, otherwise the chord will very often sound unclear, as the root is replaced a lot of times.
An example of what you will hear for the Fmaj7-Fmaj9 treatment:
Fmaj7, root position.
F-A-C-E
Fmaj9 with the 9 for 1 voicing "rule" applied.
G-A-C-E
Fmaj7, first inversion.
A-C-E-F
Fmaj9, same rule applied
A-C-E-G
Fmaj7, second inversion.
C-E-F-A
Fmaj9,...
C-E-G-A
Fmaj7, third inversion
E-F-A-C
Fmaj9,...
E-G-A-C
Note: The last inversion is played an octave lower. I found that to sound better. You can just bring it up an octave in the MIDI files, should you like to.
The same principle applies to all the chords I will post, so I will always only explain the basic "chord treatment".
I will not explore all the possibilities for all the chords, but there's quite some...
Ok, let's start with possible maj7 chord treatments.
We find maj7 chords on our I and IV degree of the key.
An option valid for both would be using a 9th.
We will follow the "9 for 1" rule.
So, in our Fmaj7, the F would be replaced by the G.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... 7-maj9.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... 7-maj9.mid
Really one of the most common major chord treatments. Also, in first inversion, compared to the maj7 chord, the minor second appearing on the topmost two voices is gone.
Another very common thing would be to play a 6th instead of the major 7th. As said in the voicing "rules" post, this is especially useful once we have the root on top of the voicing, as the maj7 would clash with it. So, listen especially to what the 6th will do to the first inversion.
We are obviously following the "6 for 7" rule (the E becomes a D).
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... maj7-6.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... maj7-6.mid
Another way to incorporate the same note (D) in a different way would be treating it as a 13th, in this case replacing the 5th.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... -maj13.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... -maj13.mid
And of course it's also possible to use both the 9th and the 6th in one chord. Rules applied: 9 for 1, 6 for 7.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... j7-6_9.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... j7-6_9.mid
And we can of course do the same for the 9th and the 13th.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... aj9_13.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... aj9_13.mid
For major chords (both triads and 7th chords), there's another option of incoporating the same note as the 9th, this time as a 2nd, replacing the 3rd (we don't necessarily need a 3rd for major chords). Especially when dealing with plain major triads, this is an extremely common thing in pop stuff. Here it is in a maj7 chord context though.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... j7sus2.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... j7sus2.mid
Ok. All these "modifications" can be done to both of the maj7 chords we find in our major keys.
However, as I already mentioned in one of my last posts, the IVmaj7 chord can as well be treated with a #11, depending on the context. To my ears, it gets a bit more of a "lose" character. Note that in a functional chord progression, it most likely wouldn't work too well. In a modal context however (such as on a plain one chord vamp) it can be very beautiful.
Just listen to a few variations.
First a plain maj7#11 chord, we follow our "11 for 5" rule, so with our Fmaj7 chord, the C becomes a B.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... 7%2311.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... 7%2311.mid
With a 9 added ("9 for 1" rule).
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... _%2311.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... _%2311.mid
Then, with a 6th instead of the 7th and a 9th instead of the root.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... _%2311.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... _%2311.mid
And finally, with 9, #11 and 13. This time I applied a "special" rule. As the 5th is already replaced by the 13th, we can't replace it with the #11 anymore. But, as we don't really need a 3rd on major chords, I replaced the 3rd with the #11.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... 311_13.mp3
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/chordprog ... 311_13.mid
Alright, the last 2-3 examples are really taking us far away from the usually more or less "stable" character of a major chord. And well, as they are based on a IV chord, they are not exactly expected to be too stable.
Ok, in the next post, I will continue with dominant 7th chord tensions.
But first I gotta go shopping and cook for the demanding GF...
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 13442 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
I don't know about the classical terminology, but when it comes to the shape of the chord you play on top, why not?Toxikator wrote:Probably a stupid question, but if the root holds the bass in a chord, then would the "first inversion" chords really be inverted?
Bersides, I already mentioned this in another thread, in pop/jazz/rock, the inversions are rather used as a learning (and to some extent, an arranging) vehicle, there's not much of a fundamental value to them - others than probably the top note being the most important one.
Usually, when you learn, say, some chord stuff such as "easy jazz comping" on a piano, you always assume there's a bass playing below when playing typical left hand voicings (which basically are those I covered so far). And in case there isn't, you may play the bass in the left, the chords in the right, so they're pretty much looked at in an isolated fashion. And of course, having a sort of terminology at hand is making sense. It might just be used differently than in a classical 4-part layout. But then, I don't think anything I posted so far is even remotely clasically sounding
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
-
- KVRAF
- 1975 posts since 4 Feb, 2005
Hm. Actually I like the approach, since it gives more credence to the voicing of the chord, but I always learned inversions by bass note.
The only real reason for this is that if you play the root in the bass, the chord tends to sound "stable", which I suppose is particularly important when dealing with things like 9 and 11 options.
For example, whether you play C - CEGB or C - BEGB, the chord is still going to have a fundamentally rooted quality to it; conversely, playing something like G - CEGB will completely change the quality of the chord, and in the case of a I chord with the V on the bottom, will fundamentally alter it's function.
Anyway I'm just sort of rambling, I guess I was just trying to clear up the terminology as I can't tell whether the "inverted" voicings you provided will have the same effect on the chord's function as 'true' (bass note) inversions.
The only real reason for this is that if you play the root in the bass, the chord tends to sound "stable", which I suppose is particularly important when dealing with things like 9 and 11 options.
For example, whether you play C - CEGB or C - BEGB, the chord is still going to have a fundamentally rooted quality to it; conversely, playing something like G - CEGB will completely change the quality of the chord, and in the case of a I chord with the V on the bottom, will fundamentally alter it's function.
Anyway I'm just sort of rambling, I guess I was just trying to clear up the terminology as I can't tell whether the "inverted" voicings you provided will have the same effect on the chord's function as 'true' (bass note) inversions.