KVR Audio

JeffreyCreel · Post by **JeffreyCreel** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:37 pm

I'm without access to a decent pair of monitors. When I'm making music in FL Studio, are there some things I could do to kind of compensate for having to mix in headphones? I still get good bass response because I'm using the little in-ear mini drivers, but I notice that there's a lot wrong with my mixes when I try to port them over to, say, my car speakers, though they sound fine on my headphones.

ahjteam · Post by **ahjteam** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:33 pm

a) get better headphones and learn what your favourite records sound on them (Sennheiser HD 25-1 ftw!)
b) get decent pair of monitors and one cheap supermarket-pair for reference

dreaddd · Post by **dreaddd** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:00 pm

it can be useful also downloading the HDPHX vst plug from Refined Audio...i still have to test it, but seems nice, and RefinedAudio are def worthy to check..
BTW if you email them they ll send a link for their other new freebie that s not available directly as link from the site

The Chase · Post by **The Chase** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:11 pm

It takes a whole nother process of learning how to monitor when using headphones. You don't hear dynamics or the stereo feild nearly the same as you do with monitors/speakers and it takes a lot of adjusting to do, like when getting your first pair of studio monitors. You can hear a lot of things in headphone that you don't hear in monitors, but the vise versa is true as well.

My advice: get a decent pair of studio monitor cans.

camsr · Post by **camsr** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:19 am

Watch out you dont make the stereo field too thin; the headphones exaggerate the stereo image so youll have to get used to big stereo sounds that translate to perfect stereo sounds on monitors. Make sure you dont set the top end too low either because cans make the highs more prominent and on monitors they are usually less so.

vpmitchell · Post by **vpmitchell** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:30 am

Like Ahjteam said, just get your favorite records as a reference and try to match what you hear...but idealy you should have monitors ( good ones and "shit boxes", headphones, then listen to your mix really low and loud, and finally from another room. You should then have a good idea of your mix.

kylen · Post by **kylen** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:00 am

I tried those inner-ear guys for a bit. I don't know I just didn't get on with them - I think I could hear my hair grow! Some of my inner body functions like swallowing and jaw muscles and such were distracting....

Anyway I tried a few set of phones and settled on the 2006 version of Beyer DT770. After a few months of break-in and a few more months to understand what I'm hearing I think I' gettin somewhere...it's a whole other piece of quicksand though.

zircon · Post by **zircon** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:05 am

If you just do a LOT of listening on a pair of *good* headphones (I use the older DT880s) and compare to other mixes, you should be OK.

where02190 · Post by **where02190** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:35 pm

YOu will never get accurately translating mixes with headphones. While they will sound good in other headphones, the minute you get out of the cans it all falls apart because you have removed the room element from your mixing formula. There are many good, inexpensive monitors available today, KRK Rockit 5's being at the top of my list. Save your money for some monitors before you destroy your hearing living in headphones. The dangers of spending long time in headphones is ear fatigue and hearing loss, permanent hearing loss. Headphone volume is very deceiving, and while it may not seem loud, over not that long a time it can cause permanent, irreversable damage.

Vonbrucken · Post by **Vonbrucken** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:46 pm

dreaddd wrote:it can be useful also downloading the HDPHX vst plug from Refined Audio...i still have to test it, but seems nice, and RefinedAudio are def worthy to check..
BTW if you email them they ll send a link for their other new freebie that s not available directly as link from the site

you can also use Crossfeed and EQ for headphones
http://www.ohl.to/audio-tools-and-thoug ... eadphones/

zircon · Post by **zircon** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:12 pm

where02190 wrote:YOu will never get accurately translating mixes with headphones. While they will sound good in other headphones, the minute you get out of the cans it all falls apart because you have removed the room element from your mixing formula. There are many good, inexpensive monitors available today, KRK Rockit 5's being at the top of my list. Save your money for some monitors before you destroy your hearing living in headphones. The dangers of spending long time in headphones is ear fatigue and hearing loss, permanent hearing loss. Headphone volume is very deceiving, and while it may not seem loud, over not that long a time it can cause permanent, irreversable damage.

"You will never get accurately translating mixes." - a little exaggeration, don't you think? I mix 100% on headphones... always have. I'd say my mixes are pretty good, considering. You tell me;

http://www.soundtempest.net/Breathing%20You%20In.mp3

This track has sounded great on every single system I've listened to it on. Besides people saying I should bump up the vocals a bit (they are intentionally at their current volume) no one has said the mixing/mastering is weak. On the contrary, I have gotten pretty much nothing but positive feedback on the production values. Now, I'm not a great engineer/producer... I've only been at this for a few years total. Plus, I use almost entirely free plugins for EQ, compression, reverb, etc. But all that being said, I really think this mix translates well to other systems.

Also, it's just as easy to submit yourself to dangerously loud volumes with monitors also. Can't even tell you how many engineers I know have hearing loss that mixed almost exclusively (if not exclusively) with monitors... it's really common for them to be cranked up to 100-110db for hours on end. I would argue that you're MORE at risk with monitors because the sound isn't being generated right next to your ears. You might be more prone to crank it up as a result because it doesn't seem as loud when it's coming from a few feet away.

where02190 · Post by **where02190** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:28 pm

Right off the bat it's painful to listen to, the high end is just brittle, even taking into account the shitty quality of the MP3 format. the vocals are all but unintelligble, a classic sign of monitoring too loud.

110db from CR monitors is painful, and almost impossible to work at for more than a few minutes. However 110db in headphones is extremely deceiving, and, since there is no way to monitor unlike CR monitors where a simple SPL meter in front of you tells the tell, you have no idea how loud you've exposed yourself to until the damage is done.

camsr · Post by **camsr** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:34 pm

where02190 wrote:Right off the bat it's painful to listen to, the high end is just brittle, even taking into account the shitty quality of the MP3 format. the vocals are all but unintelligble, a classic sign of monitoring too loud.

110db from CR monitors is painful, and almost impossible to work at for more than a few minutes. However 110db in headphones is extremely deceiving, and, since there is no way to monitor unlike CR monitors where a simple SPL meter in front of you tells the tell, you have no idea how loud you've exposed yourself to until the damage is done.

atm Im working on figuring out how loud headphones output considering line level output and wire impedance translated into an SPL measurement. When I figure it out I will make a thread about it.

kylen · Post by **kylen** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:01 pm

camsr wrote: atm Im working on figuring out how loud headphones output considering line level output and wire impedance translated into an SPL measurement. When I figure it out I will make a thread about it.

I'd be interested in that, maybe some folks at Hydrogen audio have already thought about this a bit also.

A lot of us realize that most everything where and others have mentioned about phones is true. I'm just not currently in a position where I can be constrained by lack of monitoring and I refuse to monitor on little dinky 5" inch monitors - that causes me a different problem, I couldn't do that anyway in my position. So I do part-time work in phones, even though I know the phones very well by now I still have to form my opinion after listening in various systems to know if I need to go back and tweak. Obviously this adds a lot of time and I wouldn't be able to do any meaningful production this way. Your mileage may vary...

zircon · Post by **zircon** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:07 pm

where02190 wrote:Right off the bat it's painful to listen to, the high end is just brittle, even taking into account the shitty quality of the MP3 format. the vocals are all but unintelligble, a classic sign of monitoring too loud.

I can say with 100% honesty that no one else here or on any other forum this was posted in gave anywhere near the same comments. Not a single person brought it up w/ my previous album either. The overall volume level is lower than numerous other popular dance tracks and the frequency balance is comparable. I do a lot of A/B comparisons to other tracks by groups like Prodigy, BT, Chem. Bros, Crystal Method (etc) to make sure I'm close to their sound. I might add that I've had some of my previous material licensed for film/TV/radio and no one made (or requested) mastering changes, so I'm pretty surprised you're hearing all these issues that no one else is.

But I suppose this isn't the thread; I'd be interested in discussing this more in PM.

110db from CR monitors is painful, and almost impossible to work at for more than a few minutes. However 110db in headphones is extremely deceiving, and, since there is no way to monitor unlike CR monitors where a simple SPL meter in front of you tells the tell, you have no idea how loud you've exposed yourself to until the damage is done.

This makes sense on paper, but like I said, my observation is that there is a much greater tendency to turn up the vol. on monitors and speaker systems. ESPECIALLY in studios when clients come in to hear the final track, as they want to hear it loud, loud, loud.

Headphone mixing