KVR Audio

rileyrooden · Post by **rileyrooden** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:34 am

i found this article helpful regarding headphone mixing:

http://www.bluebearsound.com/articles/headphones.htm

Kingston · Post by **Kingston** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:38 am

bduffy wrote:Amazing that can be the standard!

not really, considering most music in the world is heard through incredibly crap TV speakers,

these,

http://www.pas-sound.co.uk/comm_ext_spkrs.html

or the likes of these

http://images.google.fi/images?hl=fi&cl ... a=N&tab=wi

and earbuds.

shit sound reinforcement needs shit reference.

bduffy · Post by **bduffy** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:43 am

Yeah...good point! I'm actually a little relieved that so many people are into mp3 players, because my album is definitely headphone-friendly. Funny how we're careening towards worse sound, though: brickwall mastering, web compression and shitty speakers; you'd think we'd be going the other way, with all this technology!

JeffreyCreel · Post by **JeffreyCreel** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:43 am

this makes a lot of sense now that I've considered it logically. Today instead of mixing on my headphones, I tried using FL EQUO's auto-analysis a few times. On my headphones, it gave me the illusion of having very overpronounced upper shelf response. I took them out to my car speakers, and for the first time, my chronic problem with muddiness and inappropriate reinforcement was hardly noticeable. I did find that EQUO has its own biases and overcompensations, but it at least proved a point. Headphone mixing was contributing to my poor mixing decisions by creating illusions as I mixed

where02190 · Post by **where02190** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:21 am

Kingston wrote:
where02190 wrote:A mix that sounds good on NS-10's will translate very well to any playback system.
this is absolute bollocks. A mix that sounds *right* on the NS-10 will translate very well to any playback system. As you so aptly put, when the NS-10 mix sounds "inaccurate, and extremely fatiguing", that's when it'll translate.

trying to make a mix sound pleasing and enjoyable on the NS-10 and you've f**ked the whole thing already.

in fact I would urge anyone to try it. It's a great lesson on learning monitors and mix translation.

the keywords are brittle, no-bass and 2khz.

Obviously you have absolutely no experience with NS-10's. Perhaps if you're lucky some day you'll get to mix in a pro studio and find out for yourself.

bduffy · Post by **bduffy** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:00 am

Whoa-ho!

The Chase · Post by **The Chase** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:18 am

bduffy wrote:Whoa-ho!

Not choosing sides here, but calling the NS-10's "no-bass" is sublimely silly....

This thread seems like a massive conflict of theory and practice.

bduffy · Post by **bduffy** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:27 am

The Chase wrote:
bduffy wrote:Whoa-ho!
Not choosing sides here, but calling the NS-10's "no-bass" is sublimely silly....

Really? I didn't think they were renowned for their bass reproduction. I'm not taking sides, especially as I've only heard them as a client (and student, briefly), but the way Kingston described them sounds like what my brother would say: mid-rangey, brittle. I've heard him say that a hundred times, and that guitars always sound too up-front on them, IIRC.

The Chase · Post by **The Chase** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:54 am

bduffy wrote:
The Chase wrote:
bduffy wrote:Whoa-ho!
Not choosing sides here, but calling the NS-10's "no-bass" is sublimely silly....
Really? I didn't think they were renowned for their bass reproduction. I'm not taking sides, especially as I've only heard them as a client (and student, briefly), but the way Kingston described them sounds like what my brother would say: mid-rangey, brittle. I've heard him say that a hundred times, and that guitars always sound too up-front on them, IIRC.

On the contrary, I find they're some of the easiest monitors to acheive P/A worthy bass

They are perhaps a bit bass shy as speakers, but about average as far as nearfeilds go.

Some one nailed it on the head when they said that they aren't really the most accurate monitors in the world but they're brutally honest.

bduffy · Post by **bduffy** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:20 am

The Chase wrote:
bduffy wrote:
The Chase wrote:
bduffy wrote:Whoa-ho!
Not choosing sides here, but calling the NS-10's "no-bass" is sublimely silly....
Really? I didn't think they were renowned for their bass reproduction. I'm not taking sides, especially as I've only heard them as a client (and student, briefly), but the way Kingston described them sounds like what my brother would say: mid-rangey, brittle. I've heard him say that a hundred times, and that guitars always sound too up-front on them, IIRC.
On the contrary, I find they're some of the easiest monitors to acheive P/A worthy bass They are perhaps a bit bass shy as speakers, but about average as far as nearfeilds go.

Some one nailed it on the head when they said that they aren't really the most accurate monitors in the world but they're brutally honest.

Yeah, I figure they can't be that bad for bass, what with all the records being mixed on them. I mean, I've got 5" woofers here, and I can pick out all the bass I need, because I'm used to them. And again, what you said sounds utterly familiar to me: inccurate yet honest.

Kingston · Post by **Kingston** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:42 pm

The Chase wrote:
bduffy wrote:Whoa-ho!
Not choosing sides here, but calling the NS-10's "no-bass" is sublimely silly....

not in comparison to any nearfield since eighties (note that I'm not even saying modern here!). no bass reflex, and closed cabinet. Some people call that a design advantage, but it's just extremely outdated in fact.

I'm sorry but there's absolutely no way you can convince me on the positives of NS-10. There *just* aren't any.

where02190 wrote:Obviously you have absolutely no experience with NS-10's. Perhaps if you're lucky some day you'll get to mix in a pro studio and find out for yourself.

in other words "I have used the NS-10 for a decade and got used to them real good. too late to change now".

no worries though. you aren't alone.

I'll stick to modern quality mid fields and near fields thank you very much and my mixes thank me for it as well.

the NS-10:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology

A mythology is any body or cycle of myths - a narrative, oral tradition, or a popular belief or assumption, based on the legendary heroes of a culture

need we go on? it's just a bloody antique speaker.

where02190 · Post by **where02190** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:43 pm

Kingston wrote:I'm sorry but there's absolutely no way you can convince me on the positives of NS-10. There *just* aren't any.

Ignoring the fact that more music has been mixed on them, more grammy winners, more chart topping hits, than all other speakers combined is a pretty big positive, but then if you enjoy your ignorance, that's all that matters.

While the NS-10 bass response is very limited, so is a lot of playback mediums that the amatuer engineer often doesn't think about: tv's, small radios, less than high end car stereos, cheap earphones, building speaker systems and elevators, where the music could easily end up being played.

No mix should ever be done using only one set of speakers. However the NS-10, despite it's lack of sub low response, will still give you a very good indication of a mix that will translate well. If you have too much sub bass, the woofer cones will overexert, if you have too little, you won't hear any definition in the instruments in that range.

Every monitor has a learning curve. The NS-10 IMHO has one of the simplest, since, as those who have worked on them, know, they are very unforgiving. Properly used, at low volumes, in a well tuned room (true for any monitor) it is a very easy process to create a mix that will translate wonderfully to any playback medium.

There's no myth, just facts. Decades of hits, and the worlds top engineers that still rely on them.

Kingston · Post by **Kingston** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:45 pm

where02190 wrote:There's no myth, just facts. Decades of hits, and the worlds top engineers that still rely on them.

A mythology is any body or cycle of myths - a narrative, oral tradition, or a popular belief or assumption, based on the legendary heroes of a culture

you're just spouting the traditional lore (oral tradition in this case). It's irrational, it's a belief system, but then, what else would you expect from a big bunch of legendary but audio illiterate engineers?

loomchild · Post by **loomchild** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:56 pm

Kingston wrote:
where02190 wrote:There's no myth, just facts. Decades of hits, and the worlds top engineers that still rely on them.
A mythology is any body or cycle of myths - a narrative, oral tradition, or a popular belief or assumption, based on the legendary heroes of a culture

you're just spouting the traditional lore (oral tradition in this case). It's irrational, it's a belief system, but then, what else would you expect from a big bunch of legendary but audio illiterate engineers?

Thank God, you are here to lambast the myths and lead our poor souls on the path of the Holy Rational Truth.
Aren't you getting a little tired of that "in the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" game?

skipscada · Post by **skipscada** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:00 pm

JeffreyCreel wrote:are there some things I could do to kind of compensate for having to mix in headphones?

There was an article in Sound on Sound on headphone mixing a couple of months ago. I think the article said the problems are basically bass and stereo. There were some suggestions on methods you coupld use, and also some helpful plugins. Check it out. I think you can buy the article on their internet site. It shouldn't cost you much.