Headphone mixing

[AKJ]

Thus, obviously:
a) to get good results on both, check it on both
b) just using monitor speakers will give you a wrong impression of how it sounds with headhones

In the case of point b, nothing could be further from the truth. A mix done in a properly acoustically tuned control room will translate fine to headphones.

it's good to know that you always know the truth. but can you answer that question:
if there is a difference in the acoustic representation of headphones and speaker systems (some of poits already made which I am likely to agree are different perceptions of stereo field, loudness, transients and bass) how can a speaker system give me an accurate impression on how it sounds in headphones? An easy example: in headphones usually one has the impression of a wider stereo image. I want my mix not to sound too wide. so, using headphones, I create a narrow stereo field. but then, checking it with, speaker, I seems too narrow. however, widening it, it would sound too wide in headphones. so basically: one has to decide for which system you want the optimum sound. a well translationg mix is nothing else but a compromise. Maybe, a good one, maybe a bad one.

[chris_b]

it turns out the research - while independent - was authored by an engineer who had just happened to heavily base his speaker design on the NS-10's good aspects.

Covert marketing or hard science? I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between.

It certainly sounds a bit suspicious.

To be honest I never quite got the big deal with NS-10s...I only heard a pair once - and maybe it wasn't in ideal conditions - but they just seemed kind of average (maybe they were popular because they were best example of averageness at the time). Personally I think if they didn't have the cool looking white cones they wouldn't have been anywhere near as popular.

so basically: one has to decide for which system you want the optimum sound. a well translationg mix is nothing else but a compromise.

I think that's an important point - JeffreyCreel's contention that "the way music sounds on a pair of headphones is basically an illusion" is kind of absurd...maybe I want to mix specifically for headphones playback (eg. in-ear binaural mic based recordings etc.)...there's things you can do with headphone-oriented music that simply aren't possible with speaker based playback.

As for the OP - EQ issues aside, when checking a mix on headphones I use some of these HRTF impulses on a master insert which can at least highlight potential phase-related issues...BTW, you might not realise it, but if you're using Windows you might already be hearing a kind of "3D speaker simulation" through your headphones (it depends on your soundcard driver and Control Panel "Sounds and Audio Devices" settings).

[leahzero]

Question for those who do most of their work/listening on headphones:

How irritating do you find the exaggerated stereo field from mixes done on monitors? Does it depend on which sounds or frequencies are being flung to the sides? Do panning effects that sound cool on monitors just grate on you when listening in headphones? Etc.

[The Chase]

Question for those who do most of their work/listening on headphones:

How irritating do you find the exaggerated stereo field from mixes done on monitors? Does it depend on which sounds or frequencies are being flung to the sides? Do panning effects that sound cool on monitors just grate on you when listening in headphones? Etc.

It's just something you have to adapt to, kind of how you have to adapt to your first pair of monitors.

For instance when you are listening in headphones and put a stereo reverb on a mono source, even a very small amount of the reverb becomes very apparent. You just have to get experience in the cans to see what is the right amount of ambience. Nowadays I like working with ambience in cans becase I know I'm not going to over-do it.

[zircon]

Question for those who do most of their work/listening on headphones:

How irritating do you find the exaggerated stereo field from mixes done on monitors? Does it depend on which sounds or frequencies are being flung to the sides? Do panning effects that sound cool on monitors just grate on you when listening in headphones? Etc.

Absolutely nothing bothers me about mixing or listening on headphones. I don't hear an "exaggerated stereo field". Chalk it up to 3 years of listening on virtually nothing but headphones and I suppose you get used to it!

[bduffy]

I find with headphones it's best to not pan things 100% left and right. I don't find panning done on monitors to "grate"...the other way around, if anything.

[where02190]

if there is a difference in the acoustic representation of headphones and speaker systems (some of poits already made which I am likely to agree are different perceptions of stereo field, loudness, transients and bass) how can a speaker system give me an accurate impression on how it sounds in headphones?

Control room monitors in a properly acoustically tuned control room are infinitely more accurate than any headphone. A mix in a good control room will translate fine to any playback medium, a mix in headphones might sound good in some headphones.

To be honest I never quite got the big deal with NS-10s...I only heard a pair once - and maybe it wasn't in ideal conditions - but they just seemed kind of average (maybe they were popular because they were best example of averageness at the time).

Give that man a gold star. That is exactly why the NS-10's mixes translate so well, they are very average.

[stash98]

Any Wallace and Bob Clearmountain mix with NS10's. They know far more then Kingston ever will. Way less posting and way more listening son.

As for headphone mixing, I think they are great for hearing detail, but doing an entire mix on them is ill advised.

[Kingston]

Any Wallace and Bob Clearmountain mix with NS10's.

I f**king love name dropping as well. especially people I don't know and can base nothing on their actual knowledge.

Bob Ludwig wrote:
My clients often come in and hear distortion they've never heard before when they take their projects to Gateway. The reason for this is that I think people are listening too loud and/or on low-resolution near-field monitors during mixing, such as the NS-10.

yeah! let's wank some more!

[laputa_sync]

NS10's have a 7.1dB peak at 1.54443kHz....

[AKJ]

Control room monitors in a properly acoustically tuned control room are infinitely more accurate than any headphone. A mix in a good control room will translate fine to any playback medium, a mix in headphones might sound good in some headphones.

I suppose you just don't get it: speakers and headphones have a different kind of audio representation. to say that monitors are more accurate than phones is just - excuse me - stupid. it depends on the application.

[JeffreyCreel]

I guess YOU don't get it. Headphones not only represent audio differently from speakers, they represent audio completely differently for each EAR they're put in - And they cover all the mistakes that can cause a mix to sound *BAD*

You shouldn't even think about whether something sounds good in headphones. If it's well mixed for stereoloudspeakers, it will be just fine for headphones.
I don't see what's absurd about saying that headphones don't give you any useful information. There's no such thing as mixing "for headphones" -

[laputa_sync]

There's no such thing as mixing "for headphones" -

why did Sound On Sound do a 5+ page spread on "Mixing with Headphones" then?

[AKJ]

you people really have a problem with logics.

[JeffreyCreel]

Look, I have no problem with you expressing a different opinion, AKJ, but realize that that's what it is. An opinion. And my opinion is just as "logical" as yours, whether or not it accurately reflects reality. You say that headphones are just another way of representing audio. I say that they're a million different ways of representing the same audio, and that they all sound reasonably good - whether or not the mix is completely unsuitable for monitor playback. IF you're going to disagree with me, do so with some sort of evidential argument, not by saying I have a problem with logics. There's nothing internally inconsistent about my opinion, and it seems to explain my personal experience pretty well.

As for why there's an article about mixing *with* headphones - this does not detract from my argument. Of course it's possible and sometimes necessary to mix with headphones (if, like me, you don't have access to acceptable monitors or a proper mixing room). Like I and a few others said before, though, there are some fundamental limitations to the utility of this approach. You can't make useful decisions regarding stereoimage, phase relation, or equalisation. Headphones have lots of uses - but mixing isn't one of them. They simply make pretty much everything listenable - which is not the case with loudspeakers, and thus don't give you the information you need to make mixing decisions.

Besides - seeing the amount of sheer INTEREST this topic creates, it's no wonder a magazine would want to stoke the fire by doing a spread about it.

If this: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec03/a ... phones.htm

is the article you're referring to, it doesn't do much but corroborate the opinion I've posted here. Of course it makes sense to publish this article because many people in their readership are probably unaware of any of the differences between headphones and monitors, and it's always a good idea to clarify some of the principles behind the situation.

If my opinion still isn't clear enough - my problem with what you're saying is that I don't think that headphones constitute a "separate but equal" mixing paradigm. Headphones present quantifiably less information when mixing, and this information is vitally important when trying to make a mix that will translate across systems. Of course there are certain phenomena that are more noticeable or desirable on headphones than on loudspeakers - but it's possible to introduce these phenomena while monitoring. What's not possible is to make a well translating mix without consulting monitors.